Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic

[Minimalist]

Have you actually read some Greek mythology and Norse mythology?

Has Huggy ever read anything?  I suspect even his fucking bible gathers much dust.

[Jenny A]

I would be interested to hear a comparison of the Babylonian  Myth with the Norse Mythology  Huggy.  The Norse Myths do incorporate some  aspects of Greek Mythology, but it's tangential.  For example there are three fate like creatures weaving the past, present and future at the bottom of the world tree.  There is a Hell like hot world,  but it's not where the damned are sent.  It will however, in the end engulf all worlds at the end.  Odin hung from a tree in agony with a spear in his side, but it was not for anyone's sins.  He traded pain for the ability to read magic runes.  He traded an eye for wisdom.  The sky is a dome, abet made from a giants skull.  But there isn't much one to one correspondence of gods or tales about them.

Odin is no Zeus. He is not the strongest, but the wisest.  He is the creator of men whom he and his brothers equipped to life on their own.  Asengaard is a fortress not a place where gods sup ambrosia.

The Norse Gods are locked in a war to keep the giants from taking over all worlds.  It a battle they are doomed to lose as the Frost Giants continue to grow and are thus winning the arms race.  But even if the gods did somehow win, the great world tree that as you might guess, supports all worlds, is doomed.  There are poisoned wells as its roots.  It will die and fall.  There is no salvation.  The gods are not eternal.  They can be and sometimes are killed.  The gods must pay real prices for things. They suffer long term loss for the common good.  They are also for the most part loyal husband's and wives who do not stray. Odin and Thor do not spend their time seducing mortal women.

But the stories about these gods are often trickster tales concerning Loki, how is part giant.  He is not a creature to be worshiped. He is happily amoral and too clever by half.  He gets the gods into and out of much trouble.  One goddess is unmarried.   Many tales revolve around giants wanting to marry her, not rape, marry.  She is no Diana deviated to virginity.  The problem is not marriage itself, but the potential bridegroom.

It is a dark world view in the long run where what you do in the present is what matters.  The end is predetermined.  Sacrifice , strength,  and wisdom are admired and demonstrated.  

It is precisely this no free lunch aspect of the Norse Gods that makes them more real than, either the Greek gods, or the early Hebrew myths.

Obviously, The Norse peoples received a clearer vision of the real state of affairs than the muddied softer visions of the Greeks and Babylonians.  These Norse Gods are real.

You've already traced Norse Mythology to the Greeks, now time to trace the Greeks to Babylon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adonis

Adonis (/əˈdɒnɪs, əˈdoʊnɪs/; Greek: Ἄδωνις), in Greek mythology, is the god of beauty and desire, and is a central figure in various mystery religions

The Greek Ἄδωνις (Greek pronunciation: [ádɔːnis]), Adōnis was a borrowing from the Canaanite word ʼadōn, meaning "lord", which is related to Adonai, one of the names used to refer to the god (אֲדֹנָי) of the Hebrew Bible and still used in Judaism to the present day. Syrian Adonis is Gauas or Aos, akin to Egyptian Osiris, the Semitic Tammuz and Baal Hadad, the Etruscan Atunis and the Phrygian Attis, all of whom are deities of rebirth and vegetation (see life-death-rebirth deity).

Adonis is the Hellenized form of the Phoenician word "adoni", meaning "my lord". It is believed that the cult of Adonis was known to the Greeks from around the sixth century B.C., but it is unquestionable that they came to know it through contact with Cyprus.  Around this time, the cult of Adonis is noted in the Book of Ezekiel in Jerusalem, though under the Babylonian name Tammuz

Adonai the name used to refer to God, became Adonis who was formerly know as the god Tammuz in Babylon.

Sorry, the point was how very different in  both detail and world view the Norse are from the Greeks.  Just who in Norse mythology would you trace back to Adonis?  If you can't link the Norse to Adonis, tracing Adonis to Babylonian is irrelevant.

Besides,  while the Norse version may have some superficial connection to other myths, it is the correct one because only it predicts world engulfed in flames at the end when the sun goes super nova.  The sun is obviously the fire world don't you see?.

[Huggy Bear]

Name one thing in the Bible that scientific knowledge has debunked.

Child's play.

52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Matty 27

I don't think we even need scientific knowledge for that.  A little common sense would do it which I realize is in short supply among religitards.

How is that debunked by science?


Man Declared Dead by 3 Doctors Wakes Up in Morgue Just Hours Before Autopsy

Jiménez, who was serving time for robbery in the maximum security wing of Asturias Central Penitentiary in north-west Spain, was first attended by two doctors on duty in the prison, after he was found sitting unconscious in a chair in his cell, with no signs of violence being evident.

Sensing no vital signs, the doctors declared him dead, and an hour later a forensic doctor inspected the body, concurred with the first evaluations, and issued a third death report.

So a man declared dead... scientifically... by PEER REVIEW came to life...

Anyway, let's not get off topic.

[vulcanlogician]

But the point of the thread isn't even metaphysical. It's epistemological. How the hell do you disprove Odin? -- Whether he's necessary or not, you can't do it.

Yes, from a purely episimological perspective someone cannot disprove any of the Norse gods, fantastic beasts, or cosmic teapots. These are just things within a world of things. As for the Christian God, to the extent that He is identical with the God of Classical Philosophy, He falls into a completely category. So I really don't have time for the various straw man arguments that make this dumb-ass category error. And ultimately, I really don't care whether or not any pagan god exists. Maybe they do in some Star Trek "Who Mourns for Adonais" or Q kind of way but since none are the Supreme Being, none would be worthy of worship as God.

(FWIW I didn't "bail". I'm just tapped out from working, my side-hustle, and serving as my cooperative's board secretary. I do not fault anyone for dropping threads that cease to interest them or if they go silent for long periods of time.)

I didn't mean to imply that you "bailed" intentionally. Just that you left before providing a comprehensive argument for your side. I don't fault you or anyone else for dropping threads. You're not being paid for your apologetics. You came in and dropped your 2 cents. Then I said "Hey, that's 98 cents short of a dollar."

Side note: I found an article here that discusses your issue with pagan gods being compared to the philosopher's God. (It's in the second paragraph, Point #1.) The author accuses atheists of intellectual dishonesty on this account. I disagree with her, but she does have a point. The thing is, when talking to some theists, they are obviously talking about a god which does not compare to pagan deities. Yet, for the most part--when speaking to a colloquial Christian, for instance, they are obviously not talking about the god of the philosophers. They are talking about the tribal god of the Israelites. This conception of god can easily be compared to Odin, Zeus, or any other mythological being. Anyway, I'm considering starting a thread to address this issue...

[Edwardo Piet]

The problem I have with apologists is they equivocate back and forth between a bland deist-like god and the Abrahamic god so fast it's like they don't even realize they're doing it.

And then there's the fraudsters like WLC, who know exactly how fallacious they are being.

[Huggy Bear]

You've already traced Norse Mythology to the Greeks, now time to trace the Greeks to Babylon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adonis

Adonai the name used to refer to God, became Adonis who was formerly know as the god Tammuz in Babylon.

Sorry, the point was how very different in  both detail and world view the Norse are from the Greeks.  Just who in Norse mythology would you trace back to Adonis?  If you can't link the Norse to Adonis, tracing Adonis to Babylonian is irrelevant.

Easy enough.

http://www.academia.edu/6376330/The_Hebr..._Etymology

Here we report that there is no need to invent *Wodinaz and similar words to “explain” the origin and meaning of the theonym Odin. Odin’s representations with one eye provide the key to his name: Odin’s one eye is the code for his name, “One I.” “One” in Hebrew is echad, and “I” in ani. Echad ani — i.e., Odin or Adonai — in the Magyar language is egy én, meaning “one I” or “one self.”

The Old Church Slavonic ѥдинъ (jedin), “one”, and Russian один (odin), "one", are related to the Magyar egy én, "one I".

The significance of echad, egy, jedin, odin – i.e., “one” – in Odin’s name is indicated in Deuteronomy 6:4:

“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.”

The finding that Odin means “one I” or “one self” is significant because it indicates that Odin was by no means a pagan god, but the God of Israel, who is “one.”

[Edwardo Piet]

All this is irrelevant. The point is you can't prove the non-existence of Odin. And that's just fucking obvious. It's not fucking falsifiable for fuck's sake. Nor are there any logical contradictions around the very concept of Odin... unlike some interpretations of the Christian God.

[downbeatplumb]

No, my argument is that Odin is a myth formed from older myths... The city of Babel existed... Their mythology also existed... That mythology was incorporated into Norse mythology. Therefore since Norse mythology is in no way original, it cannot be the truth, making Odin not real.

In what way is Christianity original when it is a mythology wholly dependant on Judaism and when there were dozens of christ-like mythologies floating around at the time?

And the Noah, Gilgamesh copy etc etc.

[RoadRunner79]

Sorry, the point was how very different in  both detail and world view the Norse are from the Greeks.  Just who in Norse mythology would you trace back to Adonis?  If you can't link the Norse to Adonis, tracing Adonis to Babylonian is irrelevant.

Easy enough.

http://www.academia.edu/6376330/The_Hebr..._Etymology

Here we report that there is no need to invent *Wodinaz and similar words to “explain” the origin and meaning of the theonym Odin. Odin’s representations with one eye provide the key to his name: Odin’s one eye is the code for his name, “One I.” “One” in Hebrew is echad, and “I” in ani. Echad ani — i.e., Odin or Adonai — in the Magyar language is egy én, meaning “one I” or “one self.”

The Old Church Slavonic ѥдинъ (jedin), “one”, and Russian один (odin), "one", are related to the Magyar egy én, "one I".

The significance of echad, egy, jedin, odin – i.e., “one” – in Odin’s name is indicated in Deuteronomy 6:4:

“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.”

The finding that Odin means “one I” or “one self” is significant because it indicates that Odin was by no means a pagan god, but the God of Israel, who is “one.”

I wasn't able to read the article at this time.

But this appears to be fairly flimsy reasoning of this thing looks kind of like this earlier thing, therefore they must be related.  And that you make multiple of these jumps doesn't help.   This reminds me of something Min would post.

[downbeatplumb]

Child's play.



I don't think we even need scientific knowledge for that.  A little common sense would do it which I realize is in short supply among religitards.

How is that debunked by science?


Man Declared Dead by 3 Doctors Wakes Up in Morgue Just Hours Before Autopsy

Jiménez, who was serving time for robbery in the maximum security wing of Asturias Central Penitentiary in north-west Spain, was first attended by two doctors on duty in the prison, after he was found sitting unconscious in a chair in his cell, with no signs of violence being evident.

Sensing no vital signs, the doctors declared him dead, and an hour later a forensic doctor inspected the body, concurred with the first evaluations, and issued a third death report.

So a man declared dead... scientifically... by PEER REVIEW came to life...

Anyway, let's not get off topic.

People are misdiagnosed all the time.

I have posted similar things myself to show how common it is that people are not as dead as they seemed.

Which leads us to how jesus.
What were the credentials of the dr who declared him dead. How thorough was the investigation? Does the bible list his doctorate or even his name? (if any of it happened of course).

Have you ever considered that in Roman times medicine was not as exacting as it is now and yet people are still misdiagnosed as dead. How less reliable studies in ancient times on criminals.