Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic

[RoadRunner79]

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There are number of fallacious claims, that seem to be flung at the KCA.  Many of them are very much wrong, some plain bad.  I won't go over the bad claims.  One of the stronger claims of fallacy is perhaps the claim that there is equivocation in the phrase "begins to exist".  However I think that this is just a misunderstanding, and at least for myself, I am not using the phrase in two different ways.  The fallacy of equivocation is something like JimBob is Greek, Greek is a language, therefore JimBob is a language.  This is obviously wrong, and the problem comes in that the word "Greek" is no being used in the same way, and there isn't the relationship between the two  premises.  What I have seen (and what I mean) by "begins to exist"  is that it comes into being, or that it was not, and now is.  That which begins to exist, needs a reason or explanation for that beginning.

And yet, in the B-theory sense of time, "begins to exist" is different from "begins to exist" in the A-theory sense of time. Under the B-theory of time, it is possible for the universe to have a beginning to its existence without ever coming into being. Even WLC himself acknowledges this when he uses the analogy of a ruler to illustrate the point. Just because the ruler has a starting unit mark doesn't mean the ruler comes into being the moment the first unit is marked.

So keep this in mind if you still wish to avoid equivocating.

And the way Steve has defined "begins to exist", even your god itself had to have had a beginning to its existence.

So there are problems with the KCA, lots of problems, and neither you nor Steve seem ready to address them in an effective manner.

Now an issue of the discussion.  Steve had mentioned, that the argument is more likely than not.  From which a discussion became about the mathematics and probabilities.   Here I would argue, that there is an equivocation.   That "likely" or "probable" in an inductive or logical sense, is not the same as in the mathematical sense.  I can somewhat understand, the tendency to put numbers on confidence levels, but I have always thought it is a mistake to then take these numbers and start applying them in a math or science type scenario.   The number is based on something tangible but is little more than the persons sense of what is.  I don't think it is accurately representing the situation, to say that 3 our of 5 times the universe had a cause, and the other 2 it just poofed into being without reason.

So you're not comfortable with numbers. Big deal. People need not cater to your weaknesses and insecurities in order to point out the flaws in an argument.

Which brings us to the question at hand.  Are things that begin to exist contingent (dependent on) something else for it's existence. Do things just poof into existence without cause or explanation?  What would keep things from poofing into being all the time?  Are there limits to what nothing can do?  For me, I would say that this is not just more likely, but it is close to a basic principle.  I would say, that I am beyond just skeptical of it.  To go agaisnt the principle of ex nihilo nihil fit and not just asking someone to accept a claim without reason or explanation; but, asking them to accept something that at it's core is without reason or explanation.  My belief is that of the early propagators of science, that the universe is logical and that things do not happen without reason (which would include the beginning of the universe).  I not only believe that an effects needs an explanation for the effect, but that it needs a sufficient cause.  This brings us back to the question of what are the limits of nothing?

Shall I remind you it's not atheists, but theists, arguing that things can come from literal "nothing" (in the philosophical sense). You tell me what the limits of "nothing" are. I'm all too willing to play by the rules of human intuition in addressing the argument, yet you theists seem to be ok with the prospect of things arising without material cause, which itself is unintuitive. So what's the point of arguing from intuition for premise 1 when you are ok with being selective of which intuitive ideas to assert as always true and which to dismiss as not always true? Really, it's not intuition that is the main mover (pun intended) behind your defense of premise 1. It's the overall desperate need to have your god exist that is driving you to defend premise 1 (and the whole argument).

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You seem to be all over the place here, taking on any and every argument which may suite your purpose.   You do not seem to be making a systematic or coherent case for any particular position (even taking on contradictory positions).  Whether it's sophism or just an aversion to anything which may point to God, you don't seem to be putting forth a rational position, nor making a case against anything I said.  

I would like to point out the following though;

So you're not comfortable with numbers. Big deal. People need not cater to your weaknesses and insecurities in order to point out the flaws in an argument.

Now I gave the reason why I didn't think that the discussion of how probabilities multiplied was not appropriate (and it had nothing to do with what you made up here).   This is either just blatant intellectual dishonesty, or perhaps poor reading comprehension at best.

[GrandizerII]

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And yet, in the B-theory sense of time, "begins to exist" is different from "begins to exist" in the A-theory sense of time. Under the B-theory of time, it is possible for the universe to have a beginning to its existence without ever coming into being. Even WLC himself acknowledges this when he uses the analogy of a ruler to illustrate the point. Just because the ruler has a starting unit mark doesn't mean the ruler comes into being the moment the first unit is marked.

So keep this in mind if you still wish to avoid equivocating.

And the way Steve has defined "begins to exist", even your god itself had to have had a beginning to its existence.

So there are problems with the KCA, lots of problems, and neither you nor Steve seem ready to address them in an effective manner.


So you're not comfortable with numbers. Big deal. People need not cater to your weaknesses and insecurities in order to point out the flaws in an argument.


Shall I remind you it's not atheists, but theists, arguing that things can come from literal "nothing" (in the philosophical sense). You tell me what the limits of "nothing" are. I'm all too willing to play by the rules of human intuition in addressing the argument, yet you theists seem to be ok with the prospect of things arising without material cause, which itself is unintuitive. So what's the point of arguing from intuition for premise 1 when you are ok with being selective of which intuitive ideas to assert as always true and which to dismiss as not always true? Really, it's not intuition that is the main mover (pun intended) behind your defense of premise 1. It's the overall desperate need to have your god exist that is driving you to defend premise 1 (and the whole argument).

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You seem to be all over the place here, taking on any and every argument which may suite your purpose.   You do not seem to be making a systematic or coherent case for any particular position (even taking on contradictory positions).  Whether it's sophism or just an aversion to anything which may point to God, you don't seem to be putting forth a rational position, nor making a case against anything I said.

Translation: "I don't like having my favorite argument dismantled from various angles, so I am going to undermine the character of the person dismantling my beloved argument because I can't be bothered addressing his counter-arguments. Hopefully, I come off as smart regardless in the eyes of people reading our exchanges, because that's really what I'm aiming for here."

I would like to point out the following though;

So you're not comfortable with numbers. Big deal. People need not cater to your weaknesses and insecurities in order to point out the flaws in an argument.

Now I gave the reason why I didn't think that the discussion of how probabilities multiplied was not appropriate (and it had nothing to do with what you made up here).   This is either just blatant intellectual dishonesty, or perhaps poor reading comprehension at best.

Yeah, you tell yourself that. Because we all know how comfortable you are with addressing the maths (judging from recent posting history).

[RoadRunner79]

You seem to be all over the place here, taking on any and every argument which may suite your purpose.   You do not seem to be making a systematic or coherent case for any particular position (even taking on contradictory positions).  Whether it's sophism or just an aversion to anything which may point to God, you don't seem to be putting forth a rational position, nor making a case against anything I said.

Translation: "I don't like having my favorite argument dismantled from various angles, so I am going to undermine the character of the person dismantling my beloved argument because I can't be bothered addressing his counter-arguments. Hopefully, I come off as smart regardless in the eyes of people reading our exchanges, because that's really what I'm aiming for here."

I would like to point out the following though;


Now I gave the reason why I didn't think that the discussion of how probabilities multiplied was not appropriate (and it had nothing to do with what you made up here).   This is either just blatant intellectual dishonesty, or perhaps poor reading comprehension at best.

Yeah, you tell yourself that. Because we all know how comfortable you are with addressing the maths (judging from recent posting history).

LOL....OK

[GrandizerII]

Translation: "I don't like having my favorite argument dismantled from various angles, so I am going to undermine the character of the person dismantling my beloved argument because I can't be bothered addressing his counter-arguments. Hopefully, I come off as smart regardless in the eyes of people reading our exchanges, because that's really what I'm aiming for here."


Yeah, you tell yourself that. Because we all know how comfortable you are with addressing the maths (judging from recent posting history).

LOL....OK

Serves you right. You are not as bright as you think you are.

[RoadRunner79]

LOL....OK

Serves you right. You are not as bright as you think you are.

Perhaps...   but if you want to make a coherent case for what you are saying, then I will do my best to address it.

If you are just throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks, then I'm not interested.

[GrandizerII]

Serves you right. You are not as bright as you think you are.

Perhaps...   but if you want to make a coherent case for what you are saying, then I will do my best to address it.

If you are just throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks, then I'm not interested.

Throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks is what you do best. Don't make me out to be a troll when you're the king of trolls here.

[Amarok]

Perhaps...   but if you want to make a coherent case for what you are saying, then I will do my best to address it. 

LIKE HELL YOU WILL !!!

[RoadRunner79]

It may be noted, that Grandizers theory is testable.  If I am trying to avoid discussion, then all one would have to do, is present questions or arguments concerning either to what I had said or present an case for what you think is more compelling.  If he is correct, and I want to avoid logical and coherent objections, then it would follow that I would continue to do so.  I will note , that mere disagreement is not avoidance.  If however I don't have issue with interacting with other ideas, then it would seem that the seemingly self serving hypothesis would be false.

I do avoid some topics.  I try to avoid topics that are largely subjective or a matter of opinion.  I may avoid a topic, because I don't think the person will contribute anything of value or has a history of just attacking the person or name calling; rather than thoughtful discussion.  However this is a topic I like. 

By a show of hands, if I said that an elephant suddenly appeared in my back yard (like poof)  without reason.  How many would consider that plausible?

[LadyForCamus]

It seems that you appeal to a number of things as causes in this.  As well, you by nothing (like L. Krauss) you seem to mean something rather than no thing.  Where I would quibble, is that I do not believe that the laws of physics is a thing in and of it self.  It is a description for the logical way in which things behave (Note: not nothing... well  perhaps for some people).  

I'm going to need more than a claim, to drop the belief in causality.  I'm not willing to just take it on faith, because as we can see, there is some equivocating which is sometimes taken advantage of.  Personally, I need a testimony of what was done, what was observed, and then specifics as to how it is determined to be without cause.   For some skeptics I have heard, even the testimony of others would not be enough for such an extraordinary claim.  Some may not believe, if they saw it themselves.  The problem I have, is that this is the type of claim, that involves more than simple observation.

You alleged "god" is supposedly a sentient thing with powers, where did it come from and how did it acquire the powers and the stuff and time make the universe? Where did it exist before it did all that?

Positing a god only adds questions that I have never seen any theist even try to answer.

Oh, all those things are category errors; hence unknowable, remember?  Except for when we’re arguing the KCA, that is.  😏

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By a show of hands, if I said that an elephant suddenly appeared in my back yard (like poof)  without reason.  How many would consider that plausible?

*sigh*

It’s like the last 15 pages never happened and we have to start all over.  I imagine this is why atheists get bored with debating after a while.

[RoadRunner79]

It seems that you appeal to a number of things as causes in this.  As well, you by nothing (like L. Krauss) you seem to mean something rather than no thing.  Where I would quibble, is that I do not believe that the laws of physics is a thing in and of it self.  It is a description for the logical way in which things behave (Note: not nothing... well  perhaps for some people).  

I'm going to need more than a claim, to drop the belief in causality.  I'm not willing to just take it on faith, because as we can see, there is some equivocating which is sometimes taken advantage of.  Personally, I need a testimony of what was done, what was observed, and then specifics as to how it is determined to be without cause.   For some skeptics I have heard, even the testimony of others would not be enough for such an extraordinary claim.  Some may not believe, if they saw it themselves.  The problem I have, is that this is the type of claim, that involves more than simple observation.

You alleged "god" is supposedly a sentient thing with powers, where did it come from and how did it acquire the powers and the stuff and time make the universe? Where did it exist before it did all that?

Positing a god only adds questions that I have never seen any theist even try to answer.

So far, we have only been discussing that the universe has a cause. 

But a common objection is that everything needs to have a cause then.  This is why the premise is formulated as "that which begins to exist".  For something which didn't begin to exist, it is nonsense to require and explanation for that beginning (which did not occur).   Similarly, God's power would not be something which is traditionally understood to be acquired.  So to ask how it was acquired would be a non-sense question. 

Also, while the idea of God may invoke a number of questions, and we may not have answers for all of them; the KCA is making specific claims, of which it is saying that the classically understood God of theism best fits as an explanation to those attributes.