Posts: 146
Threads: 11
Joined: September 3, 2011
Reputation:
4
Regariding the evidence for materialism
September 4, 2011 at 11:21 am
A common but misguided charge from believers is "how can you prove that God does not exist?" The response from atheists is "we don't have to because the onus of proof is on the one making the claim" or "you can't prove a negative."
Another common statement is that atheism isn't a belief, but the lack of belief in God or any kind of supernatural entity."
Fair enough. So this is directed to the materialists out there, defined as someone who ""the theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality."
That is a positive claim, so I ask the same question atheists ask believers. What is the evidence to support this claim?
Posts: 1336
Threads: 21
Joined: July 24, 2011
Reputation:
26
RE: Regariding the evidence for materialism
September 4, 2011 at 11:43 am
....the fact that things exist?
Posts: 67317
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Regariding the evidence for materialism
September 4, 2011 at 11:44 am
(This post was last modified: September 4, 2011 at 11:50 am by The Grand Nudger.)
You have evidence of anything that isn't physical? That's the source of the claim. There are things for which we have evidence. These things are material things. There is a lack of evidence for anything else. The only things we should be comfortable asserting any sort of provisional certitude over are things which we have observed. Some claims about the "supernatural" are in direct contradiction to what we know about the material world. This wouldn't be a problem, except that many of these claims are claims of interaction. Problematic, because we would then see the effects of this interaction at the very least, which we do not. So, either our understanding of what is material is fundamentally flawed, or we have some misconceptions about the supernatural. One side of this debate has mountains of observations, predictions, results, and is constantly revised. What do we have from the other side?
(you've used the phrase "waiting for death" and if this is truly the case I don't want to have to be the guy who argues away the notion of a soul or afterlife to a dying man.)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 4535
Threads: 175
Joined: August 10, 2009
Reputation:
43
RE: Regariding the evidence for materialism
September 4, 2011 at 11:45 am
It's not so much ""the theory that physical matter is the only reality" as it is ""the theory that physical matter is the only reality for which we have good reason to believe exists".
Nobody disputes the existence of matter, energy, space or time (I should hope), the dispute is over whether or not there exist other types of things, such as "immaterial minds" or "spirits" etc. I've never seen either evidence for such other things nor any case that has established their necessity.
.
Posts: 13051
Threads: 66
Joined: February 7, 2011
Reputation:
92
RE: Regariding the evidence for materialism
September 4, 2011 at 11:54 am
The lack of evidence of anything existing outside of the material world is the evidence for it.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
Posts: 19789
Threads: 57
Joined: September 24, 2010
Reputation:
85
RE: Regariding the evidence for materialism
September 4, 2011 at 12:23 pm
(September 4, 2011 at 11:21 am)Fred Wrote: A common but misguided charge from believers is "how can you prove that God does not exist?" The response from atheists is "we don't have to because the onus of proof is on the one making the claim" or "you can't prove a negative."
Another common statement is that atheism isn't a belief, but the lack of belief in God or any kind of supernatural entity."
Fair enough. So this is directed to the materialists out there, defined as someone who ""the theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality."
That is a positive claim, so I ask the same question atheists ask believers. What is the evidence to support this claim?
What amongst the things you have good reason (show them) to believe exist your also have good reason (show them again) to believe they can not be included in and investigated as the broad category of matter?
Posts: 67317
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Regariding the evidence for materialism
September 4, 2011 at 12:30 pm
The infamous "Where have you erected this wall and why?"
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 146
Threads: 11
Joined: September 3, 2011
Reputation:
4
RE: Regariding the evidence for materialism
September 4, 2011 at 12:33 pm
(September 4, 2011 at 11:44 am)Rhythm Wrote: You have evidence of anything that isn't physical? That's the source of the claim. There are things for which we have evidence. These things are material things. There is a lack of evidence for anything else.
I suppose it gets down to the question of what constitutes "physical." I have evidence of my consciousness, though I can't prove it to anyone else, nor can they prove their being conscious to me. Yet, we still muddle along, huh?
Is consciousness physical? Are the laws of the universe physical? Are concepts physical? If so, where are they located? Where can I go to find the square root of negative one? Can you show me its location in the physical domain?
Quote:The only things we should be comfortable asserting any sort of provisional certitude over are things which we have observed.
I have never observed the interior of a star, yet I have no problem in accepting the veracity of the scientists when they tell me it's composed of this or that based on their data.
Quote:Some claims about the "supernatural" are in direct contradiction to what we know about the material world. This wouldn't be a problem, except that many of these claims are claims of interaction. Problematic, because we would then see the effects of this interaction at the very least, which we do not.
I'm not really sure what you mean here, so I cannot comment.
Quote:So, either our understanding of what is material is fundamentally flawed, or we have some misconceptions about the supernatural. One side of this debate has mountains of observations, predictions, results, and is constantly revised. What do we have from the other side?
I'm not comfortable with the term supernatural as it is loaded with all sorts of baggage I don't claim. From my pov, based on my background, I don't find anything to be supernatural, so I don't want to have to defend against whatever conception of that you are inferring.
My cosmology can be summed up succinctly in three words, and the rest is unpacking: Consciousness. Is. Evolving. That's where I'm coming from in this.
Quote:(you've used the phrase "waiting for death" and if this is truly the case I don't want to have to be the guy who argues away the notion of a soul or afterlife to a dying man.)
Not to worry. That's what I'm here for. Take your best shot. Like I said, I'd be happier if it was just a case of lights out, bye. But I don't find compelling evidence that this is the case. Besides, this keeps my mind engaged and that's no small thing.
Posts: 1336
Threads: 21
Joined: July 24, 2011
Reputation:
26
RE: Regariding the evidence for materialism
September 4, 2011 at 12:37 pm
What do you mean you don't find compelling evidence that this is the case? What evidence have you seen for an alternative, and what is that alternative?
Posts: 12231
Threads: 324
Joined: April 14, 2011
Reputation:
140
RE: Regariding the evidence for materialism
September 4, 2011 at 12:52 pm
(September 4, 2011 at 12:33 pm)Fred Wrote: Like I said, I'd be happier if it was just a case of lights out, bye. But I don't find compelling evidence that this is the case.
A lot of good information on death is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death
No scientific evidence suggests even remotely that consciousness continues after death, so where is the 'compelling evidence' to make you think it does?
|
