Intelligence is a Curse

[salty]

Sorry it took so long. My job has been hectic. Here you go Rhythm. Next will be my response to post #66. El Dinero, could you tell me which post has something about heaven in it? I must have missed it...

Answering Post #25

Jesus is a firm believer in thought crimes, but paradoxically he does not believe in punishment for transgressions against the law (at least not by us lowly mortal sinners).

“…For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.” Matthew 12:34-35
Jesus is hard on thought crimes because your thoughts lead to your actions. If you can start thinking good things of the people around you, it will lead to good actions, while Jesus declares that evil things will lead to evil actions. And we both know that’s true. If people cannot get their thoughts right, they’ll lack control of their actions and those who want to follow Christ are going to need the ability to have a tight grip on their mouths, their minds and their actions.

Any system of law that suggest we punish those who are convicted of crimes, for example prison sentences for convictions of child molestation, are firmly against the doctrine of “let he without sin cast the first stone."

Please cite Scripture for an example of someone being punished without witnesses.

What exactly are we to make of the “if thy own eye offends thee” passage?

“Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires…For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.” Romans 6:12, 14

Sometimes we believers feel like we lack control of our own bodies because the desire to do what God has declared sinful is so strong. God tells believers that if our eye is causing us to sin and move farther from his grace and his path for us, then gouge it out! It’s better to enter Heaven without an eye, than to be thrown into Hell with our whole body intact. Since heaven and hell have such a bad reputation around here, think of it like this: It’s better to enter the presence of God with the evil cut off from you, then separated from God because you would not let evil go.

How does Jesus measure up against these things? He doesn’t seem to be the type to turn the other cheek, his enemies will be punished eternally.

“Then they asked him, ‘What must we do to do the works God requires?’ Jesus answered. ‘The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.’” John 6:28-29
Anyone who repents can come into God’s kingdom, including the people who crucified the Lord. How can someone refusing to repent come into a kingdom based on repentance?

How does he treat others? He heals the blind, but not blindness itself. He doesn’t seem to have cared much for amputees.

“Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.” John 13:14-15

God leads by example.

Healing blindness itself? Why? People born with blindness or deafness still have an equal opportunity to accept Jesus because their souls remain undamaged. The Lord says that with Adam & Eve all of creation fell, therefore disease, abnormalities and so forth will continue to run their course until the Lord intervenes.

…he spends more time telling us what will happen if we are against him than any other character in the entirety of the bible. No one is so enamored with the idea of hell as jesus.

Consequences in general are the reasons people form moral and ethical characteristics isn’t it? You don’t lie because if you lie someone will find out, like your boss, therefore lying is bad because it will stop you from being trusted, giving you a bad reputation everywhere you go. Why is it so strange that the creator of the universe is warning people of the consequences of their choices over their lifetime? Don’t people warn people because they care what happens to them?

The thought that a being may be scapegoated for the crimes of others and through brutal torture and subsequent execution somehow absolve them of the responsibility and consequences of their actions.

Most people have never been spared the consequences of their choices while on earth. There are many criminals who have “escaped” by killing themselves or disappearing, but even those actions are consequences of the decisions they’ve made.

Concerning absolution. The Lord established lambs, rams, etc as an acceptable sacrifice. Lambs were temporary because they cannot function as high priest, absolving us of sin by exchanging their innocence with our sin, once a lamb is dead, it’s dead, but the lamb of God is forever.

I for one am appalled that anyone would seek to paint them as anything other than fiction. What kind of a person would wish for any of this to be true?

“Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst, the sun will not beat down on them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” Revelation 7: 16-17

Right…what kind of person would long for a kingdom where there is no thirst, no hunger, no sadness, no pain, always peace, always light, always love and always justice?

All of this is without being able to offer a scrap of evidence that any of it is true, or even that god exists to begin with.

Read Evidence for Christianity by Josh McDowell, if you want evidence. I don't think anything I provide can convince you of the Flood, Exodus, the Resurrection, Creation or anything Biblical.

[The Grand Nudger]

You bought this book? You were con'd. Again. Genesis, The Flood, and Exodus are not articles of faith for me Salty. They would be history, except that none of it actually happened. You're going to have to let go of the idea that atheists are people who simply refuse to accept the evidence. There is none, and that is why christianity is a faith. If the evidence were so clear, why is it that you can't seem to produce any? Is this something you've ever considered?

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/g...jesus.html

[salty]

You know I won't Rhythm. I believe the events in the bible happened. I accept it and I live by it.

You have already been asked about this, but avoided it. So I'll ask again: What about the archaeological evidence that disproves it?

Archeology, I'm not sure yet. I have evidence in a book called Evidence for Christianity by Josh McDowell. I've realized that all your demands for proof, with the comment that the crux of my life will be in tatters, you're not really up for giving my views a fighting chance, you just want me to give in and agree with you, but I won't. I believe in the testimony of the witnesses that wrote the new testament and I believe it melds perfectly with the old testament.

Down this road lies opportunity, Rhythm. People refusing to hear what I'm saying doesn't effect my personal choices. I'm still actively pursuing God, reading the Bible, practicing Christian standards, worshipping and praying to God.

Which Christian standards are these? There are some Christians who want homosexuality to be illegal - is this a position you share? And that's the tip of the iceberg. What 'Christian standards' are depends on which Christian you ask. Rhythm has pointed out that in your beloved New Testament there's still plenty of evil, and is arguably more evil than the OT which you have managed to sweep under the carpet.

Christian standards refer to what I do with my time. I try to stay away from things that will draw me into the grind. I'm working to become a missionary.

Please cite some examples of the evil in the new testament vs the evil in the old testament. Are you talking about the book of Revelation?

Eventually you will need to make a choice concerning Christians, either you will trust each of us by our individual chracter as proven to you over time or you will decide how we are, with a sweeping generalization because you're prejudice. What do you know of me? Decide for yourself if I'm trustworthy, if I'm not, then don't believe me, but don't ask me questions that will lead to my religious views if you don't trust that my words are credible. I'm obviously the wrong person to speak to.

You know what the Bible teaches on sexual sin it's in Romans, it's in Leviticus, it's in the Gospels, it's all over the place. If the government makes it legal that doesn't stop it from being wrong. Slavery was legal for quite a while wasn't it?

As for what I find offensive about Christianity, can it really be that hard to imagine why people would find it offensive? Just for starters, how about: The common view among its adherents that they are deserving of greater rights than me, that their position is untouchable and I shouldn't even be allowed to insult their religious views, which of course are completely unfounded. The fact that it seeks to interfere in every aspect of everyone's life, including education, politics, health and law among other things.

It's probably easy for you to say something like this, but I'm black El Dinero and if Christianity didn't stand up politically and say that slavery was wrong I'd probably be tied up behind someone's shed like an animal. No Christians that I know have interfered in people lives the way that you're saying, there are plenty of religious beliefs that are expressed on our streets and in institutions. The idea that Christians are saying they're "better" than you is just your own resentment speaking, you seem to be offended by the confidence we have in Christ, but you can have that confidence too.

El Dinero, from what I've learned in this post, you're just angry. I'm guessing someone mistreated you or someone you love and now all Christians have to pay, even this "made up" God of mine has mercy, why don't you?

---

You bought this book? You were con'd. Again. Genesis, The Flood, and Exodus are not articles of faith for me Salty. They would be history, except that none of it actually happened. You're going to have to let go of the idea that atheists are people who simply refuse to accept the evidence. There is none, and that is why christianity is a faith. If the evidence were so clear, why is it that you can't seem to produce any? Is this something you've ever considered?

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/g...jesus.html

You're right, so far I haven't provided any proof of the flood, creation or exodus, could be because I'm on chapter three of the book?

Rhythm, Christianity is lived through faith, even if someone gave solid evidence that God sent the flood and it covered the whole earth, do you think when someone is in emotional turmoil or choosing their next big step they look up the evidence of the flood to help them get closer to God? Evidence is something to settle the mind, not the spirit. No one asks for the calculations or the scientific chances that the earth is young or if it's old when they're attending a funeral.

[The Grand Nudger]

It's not about giving in, or agreeing with us Salty. The stories in the bible are demonstrably false. This is not an opinion. If your faith relies upon you believing such absurdities what sort of faith is that? You're a mark for con-men. They sell books, they run churches, in fact there isn't any area of life where some unscrupulous someone isn't willing to take advantage of you. You keep making references to death as if it had any bearing on truth whatsoever. It does not. What people ask at a funeral has nothing to do with the age of the earth. No one asks how their burger got on their plate either. Maybe it was miracled there? Do the things that people don't ask about their burgers hold some deep and hidden wisdom about life, the cosmos and everything? I hardly think so.

Remember, each time you post, it isn't the power of christ that sends the message through the internet. Might want to show just a tad more interest in the things you avail yourself of so thoughtlessly.

"You know what the Bible teaches on sexual sin it's in Romans, it's in Leviticus, it's in the Gospels, it's all over the place."
Thought we were ditching Leviticus? Oh, we're ditching it except when we need to provide a reason that fags are evil, roger.

I truly truly hope that you find a real career, some nice man, or a hobby, anything to prevent you from becoming a missionary. The thought of you perpetuating the cycle of bigotry and manipulative, ignorant superstition is more than I can handle.

(btw, Jesus was into thought crimes, and not for your pansy ass reason. He made it very clear that even thinking about sin was committing sin. You didn't have to act on it at all. Well, fuck anybody who goes down that road)

[fr0d0]

'Demonstrably false' lmao. You come out with this crap like it's real. I don't call you a liar like you keep claiming Rhythm... but I do call this dishonest. If you don't know it is then you're more of a fundie/ mystic than I thought.

[The Grand Nudger]

What's dishonest Frodo? Salty is a YEC. Genesis is in no way an accurate description of our origins, there was no global flood, exodus never occurred, and evidence for jesus is thin on the ground (read non-existent). You willing to argue otherwise? The only thing I'm a fundamentalist about is not bullshitting people. If people want to believe in God that's fine, I just ask that they stop referring to the stories as though they actually occurred, on this planet, in this reality, when we know that they did not. Why on earth anyone would want to attach their faith to this sort of thing is beyond me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't realize that you actually thought this shit happened? I was under the impression that you had an entirely different take on the bible Frodo.

Is genesis an account of material creation?
Was there a global flood, angel hybrids, arks, pairs of animals?
Is the exodus narrative an accurate account of historical events?
Is the narrative of the Kingdom of Israel factual?
Is there credible evidence for the existence of Jesus of Nazareth, his miracles, and his ministry?
(if you want to pin yourself to any of this just pony up the proof, that's all it would take)

Do I really need to wiki bomb this thread or are we all adults that can distinguish between fantasy and reality? I'm tired of this gaslighting shit. You're as bad as any of the rest. Call each other ignorant and heretical until it comes time to own up to it, then it's all nodding heads and circled wagons. Brothers and sisters in christ my ass.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Rhythm,let's not be too hasty mate.

There is actually some evidence which suggests (not 'proves') a major ancient flood in the Middle East. However,there's a slight problem, hardly worth mentioning really.Viz; the flood happened to the Sumerians, at least according to the Sumerian flood myth the Jews stole from The Epic Of Gilgamesh and slipped into the Torah:

The Flood Myth:

The Sumerian hero Gilgamesh traveled the world in search of a way to cheat death. On one of his journeys, he came across an old man, Utnapishtim, who told Gilgamesh a story from centuries past. The gods brought a flood that swallowed the earth.

The gods were angry at mankind so they sent a flood to destroy him. The god Ea, warned Utnapishtim and instructed him to build an enormous boat to save himself, his family, and "the seed of all living things." He does so, and the gods brought rain which caused the water to rise for many days. When the rains subsided, the boat landed on a mountain, and Utnapishtim set loose first a dove, then a swallow, and finally a raven, which found land. The god Ishtar, created the rainbow and placed it in the sky, as a reminder to the gods and a pledge to mankind that there would be no more floods. See the text Epic of Gilgamesh: Sumerian Flood Myth.

http://www.historywiz.com/flood.htm



Don't know about the creation for sure, but am reasonably confident the earth is actually a few billion years old,not 6 six thousand, that there was no Garden of Eden, no talking serpent,and that the human race did not grow from one pair of humans and their direct offspring.


Modern archaeology has pretty well established beyond reasonable doubt that that Moses and the Exodus are myth.PLUS that thousands of Jews in what became the one nation of Israel were still polytheists in the seventh century bce,when the Torah was first written down.At that time there were TWO Jewish states, Israel in the north and Judah in the south. It also seems highly unlikely that the Davidic kingdom described in the bible simply did not exist.

[The Grand Nudger]

Hasty? The narrative is bullshit. Floods happen, however, this flood did not. No angel/human hybrids, no arks, no pairs of animals, no nothing.

Radio Jerevan receives a question from a listener. "Is it true that cars are being given away in Red Square in Moscow."
That is correct, except for a few small errors. First, it isn't Moscow, but Leningrad. Second, it isn't Red Square, but the banks of the river Neva. Third, it isn't cars but bicycles. Fourth, they're not given away, but stolen.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Hasty? The narrative is bullshit. Floods happen, however, this flood did not. No angel/human hybrids, no arks, no pairs of animals, no nothing.

Get a grip mate,I was taking the piss.


I was using the term 'evidence' correctly, as " anything used to prove the truth of a proposition" I said "suggests (not proves)" which both the bible and Gilgamesh do.They ARE both evidence, simply not CREDIBLE evidence.

I am unaware of any sacred text of any kind which meets the standards of evidence demanded by modern archaeologists and historians. They are evidence, but not proof.

[Justtristo]

That is so far removed from what I actually said it might as well be in another universe—not to mention how utterly incoherent your statement is ("The Bible is unbiblical"). Although I suspect that you could probably prove otherwise, I sincerely hope that you could not craft a more incomprehensible response if you tried. What I said is that young-earth creationism is unbiblical (and illogical and unscientific, a perfect strike out).

Young-earth creationism is unbiblical? To say that is to say the bible is unbiblical. You made reference to some of the more nutty branches of Christianity and called their beliefs "unbiblical". I'd like to watch you tell a room full of Pentecostals that very thing... from a closed circuit television miles away, of course.

It's okay that you don't get it. It's like the watchtower: Nobody can see it from the inside.

I agree with you fully aieialoura, in my experience the large majority of Christians who go to church regularly and believe in biblical in-errancy I have spoken to are YEC. Even among those who believe the earth is old still rejected at least some aspects of biological evolution.