Ask the Christian

[Epimethean]

God doesn't love unconditionally, because in the storybooks, he has killed millions of those who did not believe in him and allowed them to go to hell. That is evidence of murderous intent and vindictive nastiness.

I want him on trial, and I want him hanged. He's worse than Hitler.

[downbeatplumb]

Fuck me! thats at least 120 gallons of wine

Yes but was it alchaholic, the fact is that the word wine in the greek, can mean grape juice. The bible specifically else where condemns drunkeness, for the very reason I stated before, it can have negative effects on some poeple leading to sexual sin, voilence/aggressive tendencies, injury. Only a blind person could say drunkenes is 100% harmless.

Are you saying that the unalterable word of god can be taken to mean different things depending on the translation?

Hardly a rock to build a 'world view' on is it!

[Welsh cake]

So if we confess our sin, it is pardonable, why well the sacrifice of Jesus is available today. Why well God is “faithful and just”, “not willing that anyone perish”, taking “no pleasure in the death of anyone”. But remember it is a life for a life, once for all sin, in the same way it is appointed for man to die once and face the judgment. But hey don’t be scared if you are alive and reading this there is no problem. The only sin that will kill you is totally unrepentant sin, not willing to come back for forgiveness no matter what God says, and if you have that sort you are probably not even interested in reading this page. God is not unjust, he is faithful.

First off, using the scriptures to prove or disprove the scriptures is as pointless as it is circular.

I don't believe in sin for one second but if I've wronged someone I'll apologise and make amends. I'm not about to let some third party suffer for my sake. No, only a completely selfish monster accepts the sacrifice of another, an innocent, to pay for his crimes. Regardless of whether or not you consider Jesus actually 'sacrificed' himself at all. Being dead for 2-3 days and then being raised up to sit at the right hand of the father (god) isn't regarded by any sane mind as a sacrifice. He hasn't -stayed dead- for my sins. At least if, for argument's sake, my -real- biological father gave his life up for me it would be a noble, meaningful and significant thing to happen. It would have great reverence in my life because he would stay dead, for me. He gave up everything just to protect me. Not get exalted and worshipped somewhere in paradise forever! That's not a sacrifice!

If your stupid god concept can't just forgive and forget what mankind did and move on with his "life" all by himself, without having the need to sacrifice himself to himself for rules he made up in the first place, then your theology is not just asinine but also morally bankrupt.

And if god's not willing that anyone perish, then why does he still cast us into hell? Why set up a reality where the death of the vast majority of mankind was the only inevitable outcome from all this mess of simply disobeying just once?


Your god is an ass.

Love has conditions that apply to love.

Glad to see you're still with us.

God loves unconditionally, unless you are talking about something else... I seem to remember you wanting to refer to your own understanding of God > not compatable with the biblical God of Xtianity.

You can't let it go can you? We've just been through this Frodo, no one can love anyone else unconditionally in the context you're using it. Love, like all things, has conditions. Otherwise it becomes self-love instead.

So do you exist?

Cogito ergo sum. However your evidence-free god concept is suspect.

False. You can love another and that love is not reciprocated. Sure. That doesn't cancel out the love given though.

Loving someone who either doesn't love you back or hates you isn't love, it's just idiotic, it's an unhealthy obsession, normally referred to by many as "stalking".

There is no requirement for man to love God as God.

It's pretty damn close:
Matthew 22:37 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind'
You'd be lying frodo if you told me you loved god this much. Its not possible or practical for a mortal to try and spend every waking moment of his existence loving some god.

Therefore you can't form any kind of real commitment or loving relationship with an omnibenevolent deity that would be recognised as 'love'. It's just not possible.

They love him as humans, with their failings... hence the necessity for salvation.

Well that's got to suck for your god concept, to work so hard for so little (unless he's perfect in which case he doesn't want or need to be loved or love anyone). Any angel or demon can easily throw up to him "Hey, man doesn't love you as half as much as you love him". He can't exactly argue against that statement now can he? Its true.

I believe that you are subject to justice, yes.

Fuck your jealous god concept and the horse (donkey) he rode in on. I have nothing but contempt for his perverted mockery of the term "justice".

You're hiding from the sun and complaining that you can't get a sun tan. It's the sun's fault because it's forcing you against your will to expose yourself to it if you want a sun tan.

I'm hiding from the sun because I hate bright light and skin cancer. >.>

[JewmanJ]

Yep, and what is "sin" as it appears to change a lot?

If you read your Bibles it kinda shows the Jewish God (OT) and the Christian God (NT) blow their tops at any old thing. God knows what the other part of the trinity is up to, but judgement, wrath and suffering is rife.

First you need to understand the character of God.

First you gotta define supernatural, and hopefully something more than super and not natural.

All the Best.

[fr0d0]

Love has conditions that apply to love.

Glad to see you're still with us.

Glad to see you still aren't.

Love, like all things, has conditions. Otherwise it becomes self-love instead.

Ok now prove that please.

Loving someone who either doesn't love you back or hates you isn't love, it's just idiotic, it's an unhealthy obsession, normally referred to by many as "stalking".

No WC. It is love. Love could turn to obsession, and even hatred... but that's off topic here, as that isn't the premise. Please try to stay on topic.

There is no requirement for man to love God as God.

It's pretty damn close:
Matthew 22:37 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind'
You'd be lying frodo if you told me you loved god this much. Its not possible or practical for a mortal to try and spend every waking moment of his existence loving some god.

So your point is I'm wrong because I'm right?

Therefore you can't form any kind of real commitment or loving relationship with an omnibenevolent deity that would be recognised as 'love'. It's just not possible.

How are you arriving at this absurd conclusion??

We are not capable of perfect love therefore we can't love? Really?

They love him as humans, with their failings... hence the necessity for salvation.

Well that's got to suck for your god concept, to work so hard for so little (unless he's perfect in which case he doesn't want or need to be loved or love anyone). Any angel or demon can easily throw up to him "Hey, man doesn't love you as half as much as you love him". He can't exactly argue against that statement now can he? Its true.

God doesn't need it he desires it and so it must eventually happen. Angels as spiritual beings can already be with God. Why would God compare man with himself when assessing mans ability to love? No where is there a requirement for man to be God.

I believe that you are subject to justice, yes.

Fuck your jealous god concept and the horse (donkey) he rode in on. I have nothing but contempt for his perverted mockery of the term "justice".

I am so sorry that you don't get it. But lets stick to the topic in hand.
Do you think you should be above justice?

You're hiding from the sun and complaining that you can't get a sun tan. It's the sun's fault because it's forcing you against your will to expose yourself to it if you want a sun tan.

I'm hiding from the sun because I hate bright light and skin cancer. >.>

Lovely. Now how about addressing the point?

[Welsh cake]

I tire of this discussion. I really do.

Love, like all things, has conditions. Otherwise it becomes self-love instead.

Ok now prove that please.

You first. Why does god love us?

[downbeatplumb]

You first. Why does god love us?

Sexual predator?

[ElDinero]

Got to disagree on the point about having to reciprocate love, Welsh Cake. Of course love can be non-reciprocal. What about if you have a child and give them up for adoption for whatever reason - couldn't you still love them even though they don't know you? What about if you have a relative who suffers brain damage so they no longer recognise you? What if you're in a relationship with somebody for a long time, then you stop loving them and break up with them but they still feel the same way about you?

There's scores of examples I can give where it could happen. I don't think it's an especially important part of your overall point but all the same it seems pretty absurd to suggest you can't love someone who doesn't love you back, or they could love you without you loving them.

[Welsh cake]

I wouldn't bother ElDinero, I've almost given up on this thread. Neither frodo or myself are making sense any more. That's what talking about magic man does to you.

[downbeatplumb]

it seems pretty absurd to suggest you can't love someone who doesn't love you back.

Stalkers everywhere agree.