the god created science argument

[LastPoet]

That... that is so fucking absurd I don't even know were to begin, lucent! Seriously!

[xxxtobymac]

So fucking what! More people believing something doesn't make it accurate or valid. That's not an answer, that's a cop out.

You need to read the question. My answer was a response to the declaration of DeistPaladin that God is shy. God obviously isn't very shy if at least 2 billion people know about Him.
.........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
All this means is two million people on the earth are controled by the same type of brainwash. and are dillusional... like was said just beliving in something don't make it true...i could say i believe the sky is green. but it is proven it is blue.. just because i believe it is green dosent make it green

[IATIA]

My reply: God isn't shy, over 2 billion people know about Him

That means 4 billion do not!

2 to 1

We win!!!

[DeistPaladin]

Shy? You've got over 2 billion people in this world who profess a faith in Jesus Christ. I wouldn't say He is keeping Himself a secret. As far as open demonstrations of power, Jesus said that the last sign that would be given to the world until the very end would be His resurrection from the dead. There are many signs, though. What you have today is many people coming to the faith by dreams, visions and miracles, in countries all over the world. God isn't hiding..He told us what it would take to know Him..it is literally true that you can't know God unless you know His Son.

OK, perhaps I wasn't clear. The Bible speaks of not just beliefs, dreams and visions but overt forms of communication. I'm not sure what "miracles" you think happen today.

Let me give a few examples:

Yahweh gives a speech to the whole nation of Judea:
Judges 1:1-2 Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel asked the LORD, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them?
And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand.

After the baptism of Jesus, Yahweh speaks via booming voice from the sky:
Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

After Jesus died on the cross, the dead supposedly rose and did a Michael Jackson "Thriller" performance:
Matthew 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Overt demonstrations of Yahweh's power continued after Jesus supposedly rose from the dead:
Acts 2:1-4 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together when suddenly a sound came from the sky like a violent wind, and tongues of fire appeared that separated and came to rest on each of them. They were all filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak in different languages.

According to Jesus, the faithful should have not just the ability to speak in tongues but the power to heal the sick, cast out demons and gain immunity to poison.
Mark 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Sometimes fanatical followers of Jesus will tragically die while "testing their faith" with snakes. Children die because their parents forsake medical help trying to use faith to heal their sickness.

It seems none of this magic exists today. I've not heard of angels visiting people, Yahweh speaking "face to face" with his followers, any booming voices from the sky, etc. The contrast between the magical world of the Bible and the real world that is supernaturally tranquil couldn't possibly be more stark.

So I repeat, why is your god suddenly so shy? Do you believe what the Bible tells us about Yahweh's activity in ancient times? If so, why has he gone into hiding today?

As far as trying to put God in a bottle..God exists outside the Universe, in an eternal realm. There is no way to get from here to there unless God takes you there. "Ghosts", and all of those different spirit manifestations are demons. Satan doesn't want the world to know he exists because it is much easier for him to work that way. He is actively evading detection. So, in either case, the supernatural realm is inaccessible by normal means.

Where do you get your information? The Bible doesn't, as far as I can tell, tell us any of these things.

First of all, Yahweh according to the Bible exists not as an abstract spiritual being outside the universe but as a physical anthropomorphic being who walks, talks, and has body parts. He speaks "face to face" with Moses (Exodus 33:11), wrestles with Jacob (Gen 32:28), drops by Abraham's place for lunch (Gen 18:1-50) and shows of his big hot loins to Ezekiel (Ez 1:27) (Seriously! Apparently Yahweh is a man.)

As for ghosts, apparently they can be summoned from the underworld by mediums if the Bible is any indication (1Samuel 28:8-18). No mention anywhere that I can find in scripture that says demons walk the earth in the guise of ghosts.

Now you say you believe in God, so why would we have to guess about it? What is the reason God won't instruct you?

Maybe because God gave us critical thinking and curiosity for a reason, that we're supposed to figure out this universe instead of suppressing the Gift of Reason by this process you call "faith"?

[lucent]

I hear about miraculous healings all the time, from all over the world. As far as powerful signs go, Jesus said there wouldn't be any more until the end was near. I mentioned this in my last post.

God is a spirit, and God dwells in Heaven, not on Earth. That is rather elementry knowledge for someone who claims to have read the bible. Of course God has visited the Earth, most notably His Son, however it doesn't mean He lives here. Also, demons are spirits.

Faith doesn't suppress reason. You have faith in your deistic God yet you don't see that as unreasonable. Faith can be reasonable, and well reasoned. Much of our knowledge is predicated on some kind of faith, be it on an authority, on a process, or in reason itself.

Now, you're saying that God abandoned us to think for ourselves, and try to figure out the Universe. So, hes just a voyeer it seems. Is he just watching us like we're in a fishbowl? Don't you think that is kind of grotesque?

Why doesn't he feel any moral responsibility for what happens on Earth?

Shy? You've got over 2 billion people in this world who profess a faith in Jesus Christ. I wouldn't say He is keeping Himself a secret. As far as open demonstrations of power, Jesus said that the last sign that would be given to the world until the very end would be His resurrection from the dead. There are many signs, though. What you have today is many people coming to the faith by dreams, visions and miracles, in countries all over the world. God isn't hiding..He told us what it would take to know Him..it is literally true that you can't know God unless you know His Son.

OK, perhaps I wasn't clear. The Bible speaks of not just beliefs, dreams and visions but overt forms of communication. I'm not sure what "miracles" you think happen today.

Let me give a few examples:

Yahweh gives a speech to the whole nation of Judea:
Judges 1:1-2 Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel asked the LORD, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them?
And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand.

After the baptism of Jesus, Yahweh speaks via booming voice from the sky:
Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

After Jesus died on the cross, the dead supposedly rose and did a Michael Jackson "Thriller" performance:
Matthew 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Overt demonstrations of Yahweh's power continued after Jesus supposedly rose from the dead:
Acts 2:1-4 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together when suddenly a sound came from the sky like a violent wind, and tongues of fire appeared that separated and came to rest on each of them. They were all filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak in different languages.

According to Jesus, the faithful should have not just the ability to speak in tongues but the power to heal the sick, cast out demons and gain immunity to poison.
Mark 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Sometimes fanatical followers of Jesus will tragically die while "testing their faith" with snakes. Children die because their parents forsake medical help trying to use faith to heal their sickness.

It seems none of this magic exists today. I've not heard of angels visiting people, Yahweh speaking "face to face" with his followers, any booming voices from the sky, etc. The contrast between the magical world of the Bible and the real world that is supernaturally tranquil couldn't possibly be more stark.

So I repeat, why is your god suddenly so shy? Do you believe what the Bible tells us about Yahweh's activity in ancient times? If so, why has he gone into hiding today?

As far as trying to put God in a bottle..God exists outside the Universe, in an eternal realm. There is no way to get from here to there unless God takes you there. "Ghosts", and all of those different spirit manifestations are demons. Satan doesn't want the world to know he exists because it is much easier for him to work that way. He is actively evading detection. So, in either case, the supernatural realm is inaccessible by normal means.

Where do you get your information? The Bible doesn't, as far as I can tell, tell us any of these things.

First of all, Yahweh according to the Bible exists not as an abstract spiritual being outside the universe but as a physical anthropomorphic being who walks, talks, and has body parts. He speaks "face to face" with Moses (Exodus 33:11), wrestles with Jacob (Gen 32:28), drops by Abraham's place for lunch (Gen 18:1-50) and shows of his big hot loins to Ezekiel (Ez 1:27) (Seriously! Apparently Yahweh is a man.)

As for ghosts, apparently they can be summoned from the underworld by mediums if the Bible is any indication (1Samuel 28:8-18). No mention anywhere that I can find in scripture that says demons walk the earth in the guise of ghosts.

Now you say you believe in God, so why would we have to guess about it? What is the reason God won't instruct you?

Maybe because God gave us critical thinking and curiosity for a reason, that we're supposed to figure out this universe instead of suppressing the Gift of Reason by this process you call "faith"?

[5thHorseman]

Lucent please do not quote things like 2 billion profess faith in Jesus. 2 billion may have been christened or baptized, but I doubt all of them believe. I know more people who have been christened and do not believe than do believe, by a considerable margin too. More are deist than Jesus freaks.

[Epimethean]

It's like McDonalds: Over 2,000,000,000 served means there are about 500,000 stupid fat fucktards who keep coming back for more.

[DeistPaladin]

I hear about miraculous healings all the time, from all over the world.

"Hearing about" isn't evidence that it actually happens. If faith gives you healing powers, why not submit these powers to medical peer review or perform them under circumstances where credible witnesses can confirm they really happened.

I said some time ago that healing Stephen Hawking would convince me of the existence of your god (or the Muslim god, depending on who pulls it off). We could determine the nature of his prior condition and also his recovery.

As far as powerful signs go, Jesus said there wouldn't be any more until the end was near. I mentioned this in my last post.

Chapter and verse? I'm not saying he didn't but I must have missed that.

God is a spirit, and God dwells in Heaven, not on Earth. That is rather elementry knowledge for someone who claims to have read the bible.

I've provided you with chapter and verse that describes an anthropomorphic deity. It wasn't until the NT that the Christians even thought of making him a spiritual being.

Faith doesn't suppress reason.

Well, what is the definition of faith, then? Let's go to your Bible once again:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (NRSV 3rd Ed)

Assuring yourself of things you hope for and having conviction of things not proven. This is a process of silencing critical thinking and doubt. Doubt is part of the process by which we can learn. Claiming knowledge we don't have is counter productive to learning.

This is why as Confucius said "To know that which we do not know is true knowledge" or as Data from Star Trek said, "The beginning of all wisdom is the phrase, 'I don't know'."

You have faith in your deistic God yet you don't see that as unreasonable.

I have an instinct when I look at the natural universe and the progress of human reason that there is some mysterious cause behind it, "God" is as good a word as any. It is not a conviction grounded in reason, I admit, and so I maintain a strong distinction in my own mind between what I know and what I believe.

When I speak of "faith" and what I am against, it's accepting something as unquestioningly true simply on someone else's say-so. Why else do you believe the Bible is God's Word?

Much of our knowledge is predicated on some kind of faith, be it on an authority, on a process, or in reason itself.

Scientific knowledge is based on peer-review and repeatable tests. While it is true I accept what scientists tell us about the age of the universe or the evolution of our species, I need not do so on faith alone. I can conduct research or even pursue a degree in one of their fields to confirm what they have discovered. This is knowledge that is recorded, tested and available to anyone who has the time and inclination.

Now, you're saying that God abandoned us to think for ourselves, and try to figure out the Universe. So, hes just a voyeer it seems. Is he just watching us like we're in a fishbowl? Don't you think that is kind of grotesque?

I'm not the one who said "abandoned". This is a straw man that Christians have come up with in a definition of deism that is not based on any deist philosopher that I know of.

I see it as a matter of scale. If we suppose the existence of a being that created hundreds of millions of galaxies (of which we are a pale blue dot) some 13.5 billion years ago (of which we've been around for a few hundred thousand at most), than it logically follows that this being should be expected to have no more awareness of us than a scientist is of individual bacteria cells within a cultivated colony living in a petri dish. To suppose that we should be able to pray to such a being, that it would have a personal relationship with us or have any desire for our worship seems kind of silly when you take it all in.

This point is underscored by what I imagine as a Far-Side-esqe cartoon, one bacteria cell saying to another, "Let me tell you of my personal relationship with the Great Labcoat in The Sky."

Why doesn't he feel any moral responsibility for what happens on Earth?

Why should we expect anything different, for reasons I've outlined above?

I've said before that Nature's God is a hard ass and It ain't gonna carry you on any beach. In stressful times when I've needed to reassure myself, I don't pray for an invisible hand to make it all better. I tell myself I have already been given all that I need. The rest is up to us.

[lucent]

I said some time ago that healing Stephen Hawking would convince me of the existence of your god (or the Muslim god, depending on who pulls it off). We could determine the nature of his prior condition and also his recovery.

God has chosen to make Himself know through His Son by the preaching of His word. Sometimes He supplements that by giving signs, dreams, visions, and healings. We can debate whether He does these things all day, but the point is that He doesn't need to openly demonstrate His power to reach people. The number of Christians in the world speak to that.

Hebrews 1:1-2

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe

The problem isn't evidence. At any time, God could make Himself known to you. You have made it abudently clear though, that you don't want to know Him. As you have shown in all your replies, you are practically clamouring for an opportunity to wedge in some insult against Him. You can't go even a few sentences without including a disparaging remark. So, why should He reveal His existence to you? You give Him every reason to let you continue believing in your deistic worldview of a god that considers you on the same level of pond scum.

I've provided you with chapter and verse that describes an anthropomorphic deity. It wasn't until the NT that the Christians even thought of making him a spiritual being.

Are you sure you've read the bible?

Exodus 3:2

And the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed.

Exodus 13:21

By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night.

Genesis 1:2

The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Yes He had physical appearences, and he also appeared as natural and supernatural elements, spoke through dreams and visions, from a cloud, etc.

Well, what is the definition of faith, then? Let's go to your Bible once again:

Actually, how about we read the whole passage instead:

1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.

3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because hea considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

These people all had a reasoned faith. They knew God was real and they believed in His promises. This is the type of faith that God is talking about; trusting in the Lord and what He has promised, even though He isn't right in front of us. We are sure of our hope in Gods promises, and certain that He did what He said He did, and will do.

John 20:29

Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

This is why as Confucius said "To know that which we do not know is true knowledge" or as Data from Star Trek said, "The beginning of all wisdom is the phrase, 'I don't know'."

1 Corinthians 1:21

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,

but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God

For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

I have an instinct when I look at the natural universe and the progress of human reason that there is some mysterious cause behind it, "God" is as good a word as any. It is not a conviction grounded in reason, I admit, and so I maintain a strong distinction in my own mind between what I know and what I believe.

When I speak of "faith" and what I am against, it's accepting something as unquestioningly true simply on someone else's say-so. Why else do you believe the Bible is God's Word?

What you have is faith. You can call it instinct or whatever you like, but to believe in something you have never seen is faith.

Now you criticize me for my faith, which is reasoned, when you have admitted that you have blind faith, which is not based in reason. Strange, that. I don't believe in the bible because someone told me its true. I believe in the bible because God confirmed its truth to me before I ever read it. So when I read the bible I found it to be about the God I already knew. I came to Christianity completely independently, and wasn't led by anyone. I had never even once been witnessed to in my entire life.

Scientific knowledge is based on peer-review and repeatable tests. While it is true I accept what scientists tell us about the age of the universe or the evolution of our species, I need not do so on faith alone. I can conduct research or even pursue a degree in one of their fields to confirm what they have discovered. This is knowledge that is recorded, tested and available to anyone who has the time and inclination.

Your faith in science as the source of all truth is unfounded. Science is a philosophical discipline based on empiricism, which is an epistemological belief about the acquisition of knowledge through observation and measurement.

There is no such thing as philosophy-free science; there is only science whose philosophical baggage is taken on board without examination." Daniel Dennett

Science doesn't actually prove or disprove anything. The religious belief that it does is called scientism. What science does is tests to see if a particular theory can be disproven, but it cannot actually prove a theory. Science cannot even prove itself as being a rational method for determining anything which is true.

Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality." Nikola Tesla

I'm not the one who said "abandoned". This is a straw man that Christians have come up with in a definition of deism that is not based on any deist philosopher that I know of.

I see it as a matter of scale. If we suppose the existence of a being that created hundreds of millions of galaxies (of which we are a pale blue dot) some 13.5 billion years ago (of which we've been around for a few hundred thousand at most), than it logically follows that this being should be expected to have no more awareness of us than a scientist is of individual bacteria cells within a cultivated colony living in a petri dish. To suppose that we should be able to pray to such a being, that it would have a personal relationship with us or have any desire for our worship seems kind of silly when you take it all in.

This point is underscored by what I imagine as a Far-Side-esqe cartoon, one bacteria cell saying to another, "Let me tell you of my personal relationship with the Great Labcoat in The Sky."

What you suppose is a being powerful enough to create and manage a Universe, but one that is powerless, oblivious or callously disinterested in the creatures it created. The scale of the Universe has no bearing on an all powerful being, who is not limited by the constraints of matter. It also has no bearing on whether he would care for his creatures, individually.

Such a being, allowing great suffering and evil and delusion to take place with no intervention and no justice, is morally bankrupt. That we are so much less than he is is just greater evidence of how morally bankrupt this creator really is.

A God who would create life with no power to intervene, but just to watch what happens, is stupid, inept and cruel.

A God who did have power to intervene but did nothing but watch his creatures suffer and die is evil.

Why should we expect anything different, for reasons I've outlined above?

I've said before that Nature's God is a hard ass and It ain't gonna carry you on any beach. In stressful times when I've needed to reassure myself, I don't pray for an invisible hand to make it all better. I tell myself I have already been given all that I need. The rest is up to us.

We shouldn't expect anything different from a god that is morally bankrupt. And you haven't been given all you need, because there are no guanatees. You could lose your life today having gained nothing but a meaningless death, one that your god wouldnt even note. The God you speak of may as well not even exist, and he doesn't, because God is personal.

What you and every other deist is stuck on is the problem of evil, and why you don't accept a personal God..so you imagine a God that is so far removed from us that evil is suddenly somehow jusitifed by neglect. You can't accept a God that is directly involved because that means He allows evil as part of His plan..but you can accept a God that is completely absent, even though he is also allowing evil. You just excuse him for it like a neglected child...ohh he is just so busy! Or, its okay, we're just bacteria..why would he care about bacteria? Hes just so much better than us, you know? You reject a loving God, but a dead beat dad, thats fine for you somehow. Very strange, I would say.

I've said before that Nature's God is a hard ass and It ain't gonna carry you on any beach. In stressful times when I've needed to reassure myself, I don't pray for an invisible hand to make it all better. I tell myself I have already been given all that I need. The rest is up to us.

[DeistPaladin]

God has chosen to make Himself know through His Son by the preaching of His word. Sometimes He supplements that by giving signs, dreams, visions, and healings.

The first three, even assuming they happened at all, can easily be attributed to coincidence, confirmation bias and hallucination. The fourth is a claim that might be objectively verified but hasn't been.

We can debate whether He does these things all day,

Or you could cut the debate short by providing evidence of any of these healings or other miracles.

but the point is that He doesn't need to openly demonstrate His power to reach people. The number of Christians in the world speak to that.

The number of Christians in the world do not require a divine or other magical explanation. The number can be explained by human efforts. It was humans, not God, who wrote the Bible. It was humans, not God who carried the book and brought copies all over the world. It was humans, not God who built churches. No divine hand is necessary to explain any of it. Also, argument from popularity is not evidence, it's fallacious reasoning.

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,

Who hasn't been seen in 2000 years, and I can't even find any accounts of that life outside of Christian mythology. If Jesus really did live, he was apparently not noteworthy to anyone who lived at that time outside of his band of followers. It's not until the 2nd century that there is any outside historical accounts and even these are brief and oblique.

The problem isn't evidence. At any time, God could make Himself known to you. You have made it abudently clear though, that you don't want to know Him.

OK, a bit of friendly advice, don't try to argue that you know someone who you've exchanged posts with on the internet better than they know themselves. It is neither convincing to the person you address nor is it likely to impress anyone who observes.

You give Him every reason to let you continue believing in your deistic worldview of a god that considers you on the same level of pond scum.

Beyond the fact that this is a total misrepresentation of what I wrote, I can't help but note that "pond scum" is still better than worthless sinner unworthy of love or forgiveness who deserves eternal torture.

These people all had a reasoned faith. They knew God was real and they believed in His promises. This is the type of faith that God is talking about; trusting in the Lord and what He has promised, even though He isn't right in front of us. We are sure of our hope in Gods promises, and certain that He did what He said He did, and will do.

Yahweh had spoken with each one of these people. This is not faith any more than you need faith to know that someone you know really exists. This brings me back to my original point. Why has Yahweh gotten so shy lately?

1 Corinthians 1:21

(Translation: You annoying skeptics keep asking for evidence but you should just take our word for it or you'll be sorry)

I'm not impressed.

What you have is faith. You can call it instinct or whatever you like, but to believe in something you have never seen is faith.

If you like. You're not going to go all Tu Quoque on me are you?

Now you criticize me for my faith, which is reasoned, when you have admitted that you have blind faith, which is not based in reason.

Oh dear, it looks like you are.

First, I've yet to see any "reasons" for your faith. Second, my "blind faith" as you call it is a belief in a fantastic natural universe (which really does exist) and some wonder about a mysterious mind behind it. While the latter isn't proven, my spirituality is still grounded in the natural world. You on the other hand, not only posit that a creator exists but that you know the mind of it, have a personal relationship with it and know what it wants and hates.

Strange, that. I don't believe in the bible because someone told me its true. I believe in the bible because God confirmed its truth to me before I ever read it. So when I read the bible I found it to be about the God I already knew. I came to Christianity completely independently, and wasn't led by anyone. I had never even once been witnessed to in my entire life.

If you say so but I find that story implausible to say the least. "Hey, it says here in this book that God the Father had to send his son who was also himself as God the Son down to earth to bleed on a cross because this cruel sacrifice was the only way that he could convince himself to forgive us all for being such sinful beings which we are because one of my ancestors (who lived 6000 years ago at the dawn of time but after the Sumerians entered the Bronze Age) who was made from a rib ate a magic fruit after speaking with a talking snake and anyone who doesn't believe this story will be tortured forever by the god who loves us so much. Oh, and love is evil when the body parts are similar. Makes perfect sense to me. It's what I'd suspected all along."

Science cannot even prove itself as being a rational method for determining anything which is true.

How about we just employ science and reason because it produces results that we like? If you like religious and superstitious thinking as a means to live your life, by all means eschew technology. I'm sure the Amish could use another member.

Compare the accomplishments of science in the last 300 years to what Christianity did for the 1200 years prior.

What you suppose is a being powerful enough to create and manage a Universe, but one that is powerless, oblivious or callously disinterested in the creatures it created.

Or powerful enough to get the ball rolling, which doesn't necessarily indicate omniscient, omnipresent or omnibenevolant. How can we expect such a being to relate to us? And if It does, I see no reason to think so. If I'm wrong, God can contact me any time. Live to serve ya God but please do it in front of many witnesses who can verify that they heard it too and I'm not crazy.

The scale of the Universe has no bearing on an all powerful being, who is not limited by the constraints of matter. It also has no bearing on whether he would care for his creatures, individually.

What do you base this assertion on? I think the size and time scale of the universe are humbling enough to speculate that if I were to stand next to God, It would not even be aware of my presence.

Such a being, allowing great suffering and evil and delusion to take place with no intervention and no justice, is morally bankrupt.

Wait, are we talking about your god or mine?

Because I don't have the problem of evil the way your god, who IS omniscient, who DOES have a personal interest in us, who IS powerful enough to stop evil and suffering, who IS supposedly perfect and omnibenevolent but chooses not to do anything about it.

You see, I can skate by the problem of evil by saying clearly God is not perfect, not omnipotent, not aware of our individual plight, who still gave us reason and an indomitable spirit that we can triumph over adversity and build on the foundation we are given. God did the best It could and the rest is up to us. God begs our pardon but never promised us a rose garden.

Your god, on the other hand, has a lot of explaining to do. Forget the tsunamis, earthquakes and plagues. Forget the evil we do to one another in life. Just focus only on the atrocities that his churches, both Catholic and Protestant, did in his name. If Jesus is who Christians say he is, it means he watched the Inquisition, the burning of Witches, the Crusades, the modern televangelists making money off the poor and gullible, the bigotry and persecution done in his name. And he did nothing to stop any of it. He couldn't even be bothered to ensure that his church was an example for the rest of us to live up to. If Jesus is real, he is the least fit being in all the universe to sit in judgment over anyone. It is he who should beg our forgiveness and not the other way around.

That we are so much less than he is is just greater evidence of how morally bankrupt this creator really is.

I don't follow your logic at all.

A God who did have power to intervene but did nothing but watch his creatures suffer and die is evil.

Yeah, how about that?

Or wait, you were talking about my god, not yours. So, is your god evil by your definition? If not, why not?

We shouldn't expect anything different from a god that is morally bankrupt. And you haven't been given all you need, because there are no guanatees. You could lose your life today having gained nothing but a meaningless death, one that your god wouldnt even note.

I have touched some people's lives and made them better. Just to give one example, I'll never forget how my wife once look up at me from the hospital bed and told me she couldn't have made it without me. I have saved a failing business and kept people employeed. My employees are making better money and working in a less hostile work environment since getting rid of a certain middle manager. Sure, I've made a lot of mistakes too but I've found my meaning in trying to make my own little corner of Creation a little better. This is where we find meaning, that when we inevitably leave this world, that it is better for having known us. This kind of monument to God is far superior to all the sung hymns and constructed churches. And if God is never aware, the results are real all the same. It needs no validation from us and we don't from It.

The God you speak of may as well not even exist, and he doesn't, because God is personal.

And we're back to why isn't this "personal" god of yours making himself known. In a real way, not by dreams and beliefs. The way this god supposedly did in the Bible.

You reject a loving God,

All evidence to the contrary. Either God doesn't exist or isn't aware. It's you who have some explaining to do.