I seriously doubt at anytime in your life, that you were agnostic. Because no one who has been agnostic, would believe all that piffle you just wrote.

I believe that this is the no true scotsman fallacy that I see so often in atheistic circles. In any case, in spite of your incredulity, I was agnostic, and also specifically not an atheist, mostly for philosophical reasons. I was active in debate and very well established in my world view when I came to my faith. And what I said isn't "piffle"..it's the truth. I believe it because my eyes have been opened as to what is going on in this world. If not, in all likelyhood I would probably be here or somewhere similiar, debating theists (and atheists) alike.

(September 19, 2011 at 3:40 am)5thHorseman Wrote: I seriously doubt at anytime in your life, that you were agnostic. Because no one who has been agnostic, would believe all that piffle you just wrote.

(September 19, 2011 at 3:36 am)lucent Wrote: So fucking what! More people believing something doesn't make it accurate or valid. That's not an answer, that's a cop out.

You need to read the question. My answer was a response to the declaration of DeistPaladin that God is shy. God obviously isn't very shy if at least 2 billion people know about Him.

And I wonder how many people believe it is bad luck to walk under a ladder, or that breaking a mirror will somehow negatively impact one's future for a specific length of time.

Quote:Literally true? Prove it. Prove it. Prove it.

Good luck. Pray really hard and I am sure your Jesus friend will show you how to prove it conclusively. You know him so well, and all.

I could point you to much testimony, video or otherwise, delcaring these things to be true. Would you believe them? There is a point where skepticism is willfully blind. I would ask, if you're a true skeptic, why are you so certain that what I am saying isn't true?

I could testify right now that I feel the power of Horus working in my life. Would you believe it? I am certain that what you say isn't true because all you have to show for it's truthfulness is some words. You can't back anything up with facts. You have nothing, so why should I believe you anymore than I would believe a used car salesman, or 2 billion of them for that matter, who assured me that a certain car was in great condition and I should buy it. People lie. Until I see the carfax report and the maintenance history, I'm not buying the piece of shit.

Quote:Why doesn't God just smite Satan and all his demons? Is Satan that slick that he can cause so much evil all over the world and evade detection? If God is so powerful, why doesn't he do away with all that, much in the way that he created the trillions or more suns in our universe... ya know, with the wave of his hand? It's easier to destroy things than it is to make things, so why not destroy Satan and his crew, thereby removing evil from the world? Doesn't he love us?

I know that if a bully were messing with my kid, I would do something about it. I wouldn't just sit there filing my nails, letting the shit happen. If that's who the fuck your God is, then I don't want to know him. Next time you have one of your little chats with him, tell him I said to get fucking bent. I can't stand lazy, shitty parents.

In actuality, Satan, while he is the primary source of evil, doesn't actually cause anyone to do evil. Satan isn't responsible for the evil in the world, human beings are. Satan tempts, but people choose. He devises schemes, and people willfully execute them. God allows Satan to exist because He gives people the choice between good and evil. If they prefer sin and Satans wicked schemes, they will earn his reward, eternal punishment. If they prefer truth and the righteousness of God, they will receive Gods reward, eternal life. Everyone reaps what they sow. This isn't about evidence, it's about what kind of person you are. The evidence will come according to your moral choices in life. Even then God is merciful and is patient, desiring everyone to come to repentance. Only unrepentant sinners ultimately go to hell. It isn't because God wasn't plausible, it is because they preferred evil, and God rewarded them according to their choices.

The problem is sin. If you've ever lied, cheated or stolen anything, lusted, hated, blasphemed etc, you are guilty of it, and the penalty of sin is death. The good news is, Jesus already paid that price on the cross. And even if it was just you, He would have done it. He took our just punishment upon Himself so we could be declared not guilty. He tasted death for all so we could receive eternal life. God isn't sitting back. He took direct action in this world so everyone could be saved. It's just up to you how you respond to it.

First of all, I insist that you stop using words like "Literally" and "Actually" when referencing something that you can't prove to be literal or actual.

Now, how poetic, but it's all just a bunch of crap. The bible perverts basic humanity. It outlaws sex, thinking about sex, questioning, surviving, and forming harsh opinions about something that's personally offensive. I have a problem with that, especially since it's fine with murder, extortion, incest, and slavery.

And I wonder how many people believe it is bad luck to walk under a ladder, or that breaking a mirror will somehow negatively impact one's future for a specific length of time.

That is still a nonsense reply in regards to my statement. I will outline the terms:

Statement: God is shy

Reason stated: God showed more signs and wonder 2000 years ago than He does today

This statement out of the gate presumes that God exists. It is asking a question specfically in regards to how He acts in the world.

My reply: God isn't shy, over 2 billion people know about Him

I replied that God is not moving with big signs today, but many little ones, as over 2 billion people profess faith in Him. So, He is definitely not shy as the statement supposes.

This is a perfectly legitimate reply to the question, and since the existence of God was presumed, it was not logically necessary to present a defense, nor was the statement attempting to demonstrate evidence.

Make sense now?

I could testify right now that I feel the power of Horus working in my life. Would you believe it? I am certain that what you say isn't true because all you have to show for it's truthfulness is some words. You can't back anything up with facts. You have nothing, so why should I believe you anymore than I would believe a used car salesman, or 2 billion of them for that matter, who assured me that a certain car was in great condition and I should buy it. People lie. Until I see the carfax report and the maintenance history, I'm not buying the piece of shit.

Yes, people lie. They also tell the truth. Is it reasonable to believe 2 billion people are lying? How else shall the claims of people receiving dreams and visions be validated than by the people themselves? It is actually impossible to validate them any other way. Miracles are a different story, and it is reasonable to have a doubt about miracles. However, there are proofs out there for miracles as well. You apparently are automatically prejudiced against anything which does not agree with your worldview, and I have to tell you, that isn't skepticism. If you were truly skeptical, you would hold your own truth claims to the same level of scruntiny.

If you want to talk about facts, if you're referring to science, you are dealing with empiricism which is a philosophical discipline. It isn't meaningful to say that materialism triumphs over all without an epistemological justification, which science doesn't provide. Math and formal logical are not based on "evidence", but rather self-evident truths. In the same way, God is a self-evident truth, which needs no further justification, as all things which exist are evidence of His existence.

First of all, I insist that you stop using words like "Literally" and "Actually" when referencing something that you can't prove to be literal or actual.

Now, how poetic, but it's all just a bunch of crap. The bible perverts basic humanity. It outlaws sex, thinking about sex, questioning, surviving, and forming harsh opinions about something that's personally offensive. I have a problem with that, especially since it's fine with murder, extortion, incest, and slavery.

Basic humanity is sinful. We're all born spiritually dead with a sin nature; we are naturally inclined to do what we ought not to do. It is the moral authority of God which defines what is correct behavior. Otherwise, we are naturally inclined to think whatever we want to do is right. It is the self-willed person who is out of control. What the bible "outlaws", if you want to be accurate, is sex outside of marriage, and lust. It doesn't outlaw questioning, or surviving, neither does it outlaw strong opinions. What it does say is that we are not to hate eachother, but to forgive and love one another. It isn't fine with murder, extortion, incest or slavery; that is a gross mischaracterization.

(September 19, 2011 at 5:05 am)aleialoura Wrote:

(September 19, 2011 at 3:36 am)lucent Wrote: So fucking what! More people believing something doesn't make it accurate or valid. That's not an answer, that's a cop out.

You need to read the question. My answer was a response to the declaration of DeistPaladin that God is shy. God obviously isn't very shy if at least 2 billion people know about Him.

And I wonder how many people believe it is bad luck to walk under a ladder, or that breaking a mirror will somehow negatively impact one's future for a specific length of time.

Quote:Literally true? Prove it. Prove it. Prove it.

Good luck. Pray really hard and I am sure your Jesus friend will show you how to prove it conclusively. You know him so well, and all.

I could point you to much testimony, video or otherwise, delcaring these things to be true. Would you believe them? There is a point where skepticism is willfully blind. I would ask, if you're a true skeptic, why are you so certain that what I am saying isn't true?

I could testify right now that I feel the power of Horus working in my life. Would you believe it? I am certain that what you say isn't true because all you have to show for it's truthfulness is some words. You can't back anything up with facts. You have nothing, so why should I believe you anymore than I would believe a used car salesman, or 2 billion of them for that matter, who assured me that a certain car was in great condition and I should buy it. People lie. Until I see the carfax report and the maintenance history, I'm not buying the piece of shit.

Quote:Why doesn't God just smite Satan and all his demons? Is Satan that slick that he can cause so much evil all over the world and evade detection? If God is so powerful, why doesn't he do away with all that, much in the way that he created the trillions or more suns in our universe... ya know, with the wave of his hand? It's easier to destroy things than it is to make things, so why not destroy Satan and his crew, thereby removing evil from the world? Doesn't he love us?

I know that if a bully were messing with my kid, I would do something about it. I wouldn't just sit there filing my nails, letting the shit happen. If that's who the fuck your God is, then I don't want to know him. Next time you have one of your little chats with him, tell him I said to get fucking bent. I can't stand lazy, shitty parents.

In actuality, Satan, while he is the primary source of evil, doesn't actually cause anyone to do evil. Satan isn't responsible for the evil in the world, human beings are. Satan tempts, but people choose. He devises schemes, and people willfully execute them. God allows Satan to exist because He gives people the choice between good and evil. If they prefer sin and Satans wicked schemes, they will earn his reward, eternal punishment. If they prefer truth and the righteousness of God, they will receive Gods reward, eternal life. Everyone reaps what they sow. This isn't about evidence, it's about what kind of person you are. The evidence will come according to your moral choices in life. Even then God is merciful and is patient, desiring everyone to come to repentance. Only unrepentant sinners ultimately go to hell. It isn't because God wasn't plausible, it is because they preferred evil, and God rewarded them according to their choices.

The problem is sin. If you've ever lied, cheated or stolen anything, lusted, hated, blasphemed etc, you are guilty of it, and the penalty of sin is death. The good news is, Jesus already paid that price on the cross. And even if it was just you, He would have done it. He took our just punishment upon Himself so we could be declared not guilty. He tasted death for all so we could receive eternal life. God isn't sitting back. He took direct action in this world so everyone could be saved. It's just up to you how you respond to it.

First of all, I insist that you stop using words like "Literally" and "Actually" when referencing something that you can't prove to be literal or actual.

Now, how poetic, but it's all just a bunch of crap. The bible perverts basic humanity. It outlaws sex, thinking about sex, questioning, surviving, and forming harsh opinions about something that's personally offensive. I have a problem with that, especially since it's fine with murder, extortion, incest, and slavery.

Lucent...please learn to use the

Quote:

bbcode???

You posts are getting incoherent dearie

Getting? Have been, by and large.

(September 19, 2011 at 8:23 am)Epimethean Wrote: Getting? Have been, by and large.

Now now Epi....we HAVE to be Nice (*teeth clenched)

It doesn't matter what you hypothesize, and as long as all you have is an opinion you have no grounds to dismiss similar flights of fancy from others who happen to disagree. In other words, you don't get to decide the grounds or terms of an argument that you put forward. I can make up any god I like at will, but having a discussion over what this god did, does, or desires, without first providing any evidence that said god exists is infantile. Without something to consider, we're talking Santa Claus, Unicorns, Teapots, and Garden Faeries. There's a word for any "test" like this, false positive.

You're defining things in a way that suits your argument without providing any justification for your definitions. It's common, it's bullshit, that's apologetics. Propose the deists god and we'll just have to wait until we can see the beginning of the beginning, but as long as you put forward a theistic god, that interacts with the world, you're making a claim to the material, and with claims like that, it's evidence or gtfo. That modern christians seem to know so little about their own theology that they fail to realize that their religion is grounded on "evidence" in the first place, and that there was no distinction between the natural and the supernatural worlds to the founders minds is utterly lost on them. We know too much to believe in these fairy tales as told and so we try to beat them out against the anvil of that knowledge and make them fit. They don't. They're relics. God isn't shy, people just aren't as gullible as before. Billions of people are neither lying nor correct, they are mislead. But hey, don't let me steal your dichotomy away from you, there isn't much left to christianity without them.

god isn't shy? The amazing all powerful creator of the universe can only do little shitty signs in people's "hearts" to show himself today? Why? If he's gonna show himself, SHOW himself. Why is it in such little signs?

Quote:Make sense now?

Of course not. You're a lunatic.