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RE: Do you believe in god or math?
October 12, 2011 at 9:04 pm
There is someone on another planet observing ours. They have established the rotation and revolution of our little blue marble.They have a different language, different observations. different perspective on physics, etc.
This in no way changes the revolution or rotation of our planet Earth. They will have the same ultimate 'math' determine the end result. It takes 365.25 rotations to complete one revolution. The 'math' of our orbit is universal regardless of the language used or not used.
There are planets that we have not yet observed. These planets have mathematical orbits without language or observation. All we can do is observe, report and predict, but we cannot change the 'math'.
Math exists without us and in spite of us.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
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RE: Do you believe in god or math?
October 12, 2011 at 9:46 pm
(This post was last modified: October 12, 2011 at 9:50 pm by Modular Moog V.)
(October 12, 2011 at 9:04 pm)IATIA Wrote: There is someone on another planet observing ours. They have established the rotation and revolution of our little blue marble.They have a different language, different observations. different perspective on physics, etc.
This in no way changes the revolution or rotation of our planet Earth. They will have the same ultimate 'math' determine the end result. It takes 365.25 rotations to complete one revolution. The 'math' of our orbit is universal regardless of the language used or not used.
There are planets that we have not yet observed. These planets have mathematical orbits without language or observation. All we can do is observe, report and predict, but we cannot change the 'math'.
Math exists without us and in spite of us.
No one is arguing that what we call"math" or according to the original word, knowledge, is part of the objective world. Our ability to receive it without confusion is in great question. How do aliens help us understand this? They may be more advanced, but still have no perfect machine that will help us measure our rotation without error. The tiny bit of uncertainty will remain, even if you could close the gap of imperfect measuring, by half, every year, for a million years, there will still be a gap that never will close.
Uncertainty rules the observed world/universe.
But the math we study in our minds has no gaps.
How do you explain this?
When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.
Mark Twain
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RE: Do you believe in god or math?
October 13, 2011 at 2:21 am
(October 12, 2011 at 9:46 pm)Pendragon Wrote: Uncertainty rules the observed world/universe.
But the math we study in our minds has no gaps.
How do you explain this?
Uncertainty exists only in our minds, not in the universe. With every variable, every action and every reaction considered, everything can be computed. It is highly unlikely that we will ever have enough information at any one moment for our language of mathematics to correspond exactly to the math of the universe. But we can get close enough, then adjust the results to meet the observation.
Variables are innumerable. The "math we study in our minds" is the simplest necessary for insignificant variations. Back to the orbit of Earth. Some of the variables not considered are magma flow, gravitational effects from the galaxy, perhaps gravitational effects from other galaxies, weather, sunspot activity, etc. These variables are not considered, albeit they have an effect, it is too small to consider and the mathematical equations involved would be all too consuming. It is easier to just add a couple of seconds to the calendar than create and solve the complete set of equations.
The math is there, we just 'subjectively' decide how much of it will meet our needs then we 'subjectively' remove the "gaps".
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Do you believe in god or math?
October 18, 2011 at 8:36 pm
(October 13, 2011 at 2:21 am)IATIA Wrote: (October 12, 2011 at 9:46 pm)Pendragon Wrote: Uncertainty rules the observed world/universe.
But the math we study in our minds has no gaps.
How do you explain this?
Uncertainty exists only in our minds, not in the universe. With every variable, every action and every reaction considered, everything can be computed. It is highly unlikely that we will ever have enough information at any one moment for our language of mathematics to correspond exactly to the math of the universe. But we can get close enough, then adjust the results to meet the observation.
Variables are innumerable. The "math we study in our minds" is the simplest necessary for insignificant variations. Back to the orbit of Earth. Some of the variables not considered are magma flow, gravitational effects from the galaxy, perhaps gravitational effects from other galaxies, weather, sunspot activity, etc. These variables are not considered, albeit they have an effect, it is too small to consider and the mathematical equations involved would be all too consuming. It is easier to just add a couple of seconds to the calendar than create and solve the complete set of equations.
The math is there, we just 'subjectively' decide how much of it will meet our needs then we 'subjectively' remove the "gaps".
Are you sure? Most of quantum mechanics relates the concept that observation changes things. If so, how does math exist in the "observed" world?,
Or is it in the observer? Both?
Read this carefully, even if it is again: http://quantumenigma.com/wp-content/uplo...riment.pdf
When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.
Mark Twain
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RE: Do you believe in god or math?
October 18, 2011 at 9:30 pm
(October 18, 2011 at 8:36 pm)Pendragon Wrote: Are you sure?
Yes.
(October 18, 2011 at 8:36 pm)Pendragon Wrote: Most of quantum mechanics relates the concept that observation changes things. If so, how does math exist in the "observed" world?,
Or is it in the observer? Both?
Read this carefully, even if it is again: http://quantumenigma.com/wp-content/uplo...riment.pdf
Yes I have studied that a multitude of times, but thanks for a PDF copy.
Of course observation changes things. One cannot study apes in the wild. The presence of the observer will always create a situation different than if they were not there.
Same thing in physics. Observation creates an interaction which changes all things. That is the major flaw with Laplace's Demon or a god even. There are many things beyond our understanding and comprehension, but in the end, it all still works. Were there a failure in the underlying math of the universe, things would go horribly wrong and we would not be here discussing it at all.
We are still discovering the underlying 'math' of the universe. Is what we have discovered so far precise? Of course not. Is it accurate? Maybe, but then there are contradictions that suggest otherwise. We have yet to develop a significant mathematics/physics history to look back and say, "How foolish they were". In the far future, when more is known, they may look at us the same way we look at the Babylonians.
Today we are away from religious dogma enough in the scientific circles that we can discover, experiment, question and establish theories with little intervention. Of course new theories that slap the face of 'conventional wisdom' still present issues.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Do you believe in god or math?
October 18, 2011 at 9:49 pm
(October 18, 2011 at 9:30 pm)IATIA Wrote: (October 18, 2011 at 8:36 pm)Pendragon Wrote: Are you sure?
Yes.
(October 18, 2011 at 8:36 pm)Pendragon Wrote: Most of quantum mechanics relates the concept that observation changes things. If so, how does math exist in the "observed" world?,
Or is it in the observer? Both?
Read this carefully, even if it is again: http://quantumenigma.com/wp-content/uplo...riment.pdf
Yes I have studied that a multitude of times, but thanks for a PDF copy.
Of course observation changes things. One cannot study apes in the wild. The presence of the observer will always create a situation different than if they were not there.
Same thing in physics. Observation creates an interaction which changes all things. That is the major flaw with Laplace's Demon or a god even. There are many things beyond our understanding and comprehension, but in the end, it all still works. Were there a failure in the underlying math of the universe, things would go horribly wrong and we would not be here discussing it at all.
We are still discovering the underlying 'math' of the universe. Is what we have discovered so far precise? Of course not. Is it accurate? Maybe, but then there are contradictions that suggest otherwise. We have yet to develop a significant mathematics/physics history to look back and say, "How foolish they were". In the far future, when more is known, they may look at us the same way we look at the Babylonians.
Today we are away from religious dogma enough in the scientific circles that we can discover, experiment, question and establish theories with little intervention. Of course new theories that slap the face of 'conventional wisdom' still present issues.
No, not at all. We are trying to discover if "math is SUBJECTIVE or OBJECTIVE. Are numbers real, or not? sorry for yelling!
After the quantum scramble, those "4 eggs" look a little different, yes?
And it looks worse after humans look at it. 
When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.
Mark Twain
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RE: Do you believe in god or math?
October 18, 2011 at 10:26 pm
(October 18, 2011 at 9:49 pm)Pendragon Wrote: No, not at all. We are trying to discover if "math is SUBJECTIVE or OBJECTIVE. Are numbers real, or not? sorry for yelling!
After the quantum scramble, those "4 eggs" look a little different, yes?
And it looks worse after humans look at it.
A little clarification on my views. Reading back a few post, I believe I have taken my interpretations for granted.
I perceive 'math' at three levels;
- The absolute underlying math of the universe (objective)
- The math that we have discovered (objective mostly)
- The equations that we have built to accomodate our discovery (attempt at objectivity but somewhat subjective)
The underlying math of the universe is objective. Our application of what we have discovered is subjective. We have created 'subjective' mathematics under the guise of 'objective' mathematics. The equations are objective, the application is objective, but the analysis is subjective. There are equations that have anomalies in them and so these anomalies are dropped because the result is less than satisfactory with these anomalies in place.
The double-slit experiment (which I assume you familiar with).
The necessary tools to observe why the electron 'coalesced' was what actually 'collapsed the wave function'. We cannot study it without looking at it, but looking at it changes it. This forces our observations to a subjective view (i.e. guessing).
Our problem at the quantum level is that we cannot see the 'eggs'. Any attempt to look, changes them. Right now, we do not even know if we have 'eggs'.
To develop a precise equation, all variables would have to be accounted for,including the variables of observation, then there is the variable of the observation of the observation and on ad infinitum. We can probably never create an equation that will be absolutely precise, but we can get close enough to pursue further knowledge of our universe.
The 'math' of the universe is objective, but our mathematics will always be somewhat subjective.
I do not know if I got it yet. Getting close?
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Do you believe in god or math?
October 19, 2011 at 9:02 am
"Quantum" anything draws a lot of mysticism doesn't it. Ramtha approves.
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RE: Do you believe in god or math?
October 19, 2011 at 10:03 am
(October 18, 2011 at 10:26 pm)IATIA Wrote: Our problem at the quantum level is that we cannot see the 'eggs'. Any attempt to look, changes them. Right now, we do not even know if we have 'eggs'.
To develop a precise equation, all variables would have to be accounted for,including the variables of observation, then there is the variable of the observation of the observation and on ad infinitum. We can probably never create an equation that will be absolutely precise, but we can get close enough to pursue further knowledge of our universe.
Our problem at the quantum level is we do not really understand the quantum level. Can't remember who, but someone put it to me once that our approach to finding out about very small particles is akin to an alien finding out how a complex machine works without being able to look inside it, and resorting to launching machines at each other and trying to guess how they work based on the bits that come out.
But that's not the point. The point is, ALL math is objective. We cannot directly relate the math of the universe with the math we know and understand, but only because we haven't discovered it. For example, we know the math behind the distortion of space and time by mass, but we can't predict the distortion with zero error because we can't measure mass with zero error. That's just the numbers you put in, though. The math is objective and complete.
Pendragon, your posts are little more than playing with words. Asking questions like "how does math exist" amounts to about as much as asking how, for example, invisible pink unicorns don't exist. You are in effect using definitions of "math" and "exist" which suit the argument you are trying to make. Math, by your definition (from what I can gather from your posts) is subjective - to you only - and doesn't really exist, is not used by anyone except you when you're trying to make a point, and has no known practical or theoretical use.
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RE: Do you believe in god or math?
October 19, 2011 at 10:43 am
(October 19, 2011 at 9:02 am)Rhythm Wrote: "Quantum" anything draws a lot of mysticism doesn't it. Ramtha approves.
Well I guess that is fair, as Quantus in Latin means "how much", and with math it is how many.
Numbers may be a partial aspect of the objective world, but only using them to describe things loses a lot of data. You see 10 horses in a field. reporting them as such means nothing to the tax man, who wants also to know how much are they worth? That amount varies through the life of the horse. And the value of individual horses varies quite a bit too.
The only thing the math does is give 10 equal horses. After quantifying them in terms of money, we can let the math shine with much more detail. 1 prize stud worth $250,000 (who ran away) and is hanging out with 9 scrub mares worth $800 each. We shall have to see if they gave him some bad horse disease that brings his value down to 0 however.
When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.
Mark Twain
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