That Gay Thread

[The Architect Of Fate]

Cherub19 is a Sock a of Cherub786 who was already banned

---

At work.

No, dear Tosser, I am understanding your semantics thoroughly.

That your argument currently seems to rely upon 'The words' not existing is, to me, very lacking.

Do you have anything else?

Cheers.

Here here

[The Valkyrie]

Didn't exist as a community before the 20th century?

Is it because they were persecuted and hounded before that time and throughout the 20th and 21st centuries, or perhaps they just kept their existence quiet?

There was no feminist community/movement before the mid to late 19th century. Or was there.

Even if these two groups didn't have communities before this time, does that make their existence now any less relevant?

To put it another way, there was no Islam before the 3rd/4th century. So by this logic, Islam has no relevance.

[Silver]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline...BT_history

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

No, dear Tosser, I am understanding your semantics thoroughly.

That your argument currently seems to rely upon 'The words' not existing is, to me, very lacking.

Do you have anything else?

Cheers.

The point is you have thus far failed to prove the existence of the LGBTQ as a community prior to the 20th century. The moment you prove the existence of such a community, my argument is invalidated, and the discussion over a word or name to describe that community becomes moot. Until then, my assertion that the LGBTQ community that exists today is a 20th century development stands. When I say we find no name or word to describe this community that allegedly existed before the 20th century (which is your position) is an auxiliary point, which incidentally hasn’t been disproved either. But the substance of my argument can only be refuted if you present evidence that this LGBTQ community did exist in history. Moreover, you should also prove that this community existed continuously. Hypothetically, if you present evidence that what we call the LGBTQ today existed as a community from isolated instances in ancient history but that its existence is not unbroken and not continuous, the question will arise how is it possible that a community has gaps in its history where it altogether ceased to exist. But we will cross that bridge when we come to it, that is, if we ever come to it, which I am confident we won’t.

No you knobb polisher.

I've shown that the prolicavity about which you are making assertions did, in deed, exist and was acknowledged within cultures prior to the 20Th century (To which you've agreed) makes a mockery of your semantic twaddle.

Cheers.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Didn't exist as a community before the 20th century?

Is it because they were persecuted and hounded before that time and throughout the 20th and 21st centuries, or perhaps they just kept their existence quiet?

There was no feminist community/movement before the mid to late 19th century.  Or was there.

Even if these two groups didn't have communities before this time, does that make their existence now any less relevant?

To put it another way, there was no Islam before the 3rd/4th century.  So by this logic, Islam has no relevance.

Considering this guys a sock (one who's already been banned ) and a troll are we really surprised .

[Cherub19]

Didn't exist as a community before the 20th century?

Is it because they were persecuted and hounded before that time and throughout the 20th and 21st centuries, or perhaps they just kept their existence quiet?

There was no feminist community/movement before the mid to late 19th century.  Or was there.

Even if these two groups didn't have communities before this time, does that make their existence now any less relevant?

To put it another way, there was no Islam before the 3rd/4th century.  So by this logic, Islam has no relevance.

I don’t agree that homosexuals were ever persecuted or “hounded”. Hounded means the authorities or mobs went out of their way to find homosexuals and then inflict punitive measures on them. As far as I’m aware, though I am open to the possibility of being incorrect, there are no significant, if any, examples of such hounding (unlike, for example, the hounding of witches or “witch-hunts”, or inquisition of creeds deemed heretical by the Roman Church). But the question that naturally arises is, if we grant that at certain times and places, which by no means is the general trend of world history, homosexuals were persecuted, how does that prevent the coalescing of homosexuals into a community? It was pointed out that some cultures and civilizations, notably ancient Greece, tolerated and even celebrated homosexuality. At the very least, if this is meant to be a community, it should have taken the shape of one in ancient Greece.

As I understand it, feminism is a movement and not a community. In fact, the aim of many feminists is to transform the population of women (who constitute half of humanity) into a separate community, but they have thus far failed to achieve that aim at any considerable degree of success and seriousness. Men and women have never constituted separate communities, communities have never been formed on the sole basis of gender or sexual orientation.

Muslims didn’t exist as a community before the 7th century CE because before that time Muslims did not exist as individuals. On the other hand, homosexuals have existed throughout human history as individuals, but they only took the shape of a community in the 20th century. It is my thesis that the LGBTQ community that has recently come into existence is a consequence of conspiratorial social engineering, and so unlike other communities based on race, ethnicity, language or religion, the LGBTQ community’s existence does not share the same legitimacy and fluidity.

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

So Cherub is happy enough to run their ignorance up a flag pole and wave it around.

All the while sitting on their pitard of semantics as the fuse burns down?

Fair cop.

[Belacqua]

I don’t agree that homosexuals were ever persecuted or “hounded”. Hounded means the authorities or mobs went out of their way to find homosexuals and then inflict punitive measures on them.

This all depends on the time and place. 

First, the word and the concept of homosexuality didn't exist until the 19th century. People thought about and categorized same-sex attraction differently.

So in ancient Rome, for example, they didn't distinguish between gay and straight, they distinguished between penetrating and penetrated. It was considered normal for a Roman to enjoy penetrating someone else, male or female. The penetrated person, however, was considered weaker and not masculine. If you accused a Roman man of fucking other men, that would be considered normal, but if you accused him of enjoying getting fucked, that would be an insult. 

Later Christian Europe didn't think about orientation but about acts. They objected to sodomy. 

That said, men who were known to go in for sodomy, and especially men who encouraged young people to do it, could be hunted down and persecuted. This went on very late. Oscar Wilde, for example, had his life ruined because he was said to have corrupted (seduced to sodomy) the son of a rich man. This rich man, by the way, the Marquess of Queensbury, was an outspoken atheist. 

But if you read about Wilde's life, or about Andre Gide or Proust, it is clear that there is a kind of "community" of men in the know. They know who is welcoming and who isn't, where they can rent summer houses and where they can't, etc. 

It may be that this isn't a "community" in the sense we're using it now. They seldom advocated for their rights or tried to influence public opinion. The world wasn't ready for that. But they supported each other and knew each other. Think of the play-house that the Baron de Charlus has put together for himself and his male friends near the end of Proust's novel. That was a kind of community, though not a political one. 

I was surprised to discover that Tokyo had a thriving gay scene for years, even when America and Europe were behind. Several of the important translators and cultural critics in Japan in the 20th century were gay American servicemen in the post-war occupation who discovered that Japan was safer and more fun for them than back home. Seidensticker and Donald Keene and other names that expats all know. There is a funny story about the guy who translated the Nobel Prize winning Japanese novel into English who got bored at the Nobel banquet in Tokyo and ducked around the corner to a little gay SM club.

[The Architect Of Fate]

I don’t agree that homosexuals were ever persecuted or “hounded”. Hounded means the authorities or mobs went out of their way to find homosexuals and then inflict punitive measures on them.

This all depends on the time and place. 

First, the word and the concept of homosexuality didn't exist until the 19th century. People thought about and categorized same-sex attraction differently.

So in ancient Rome, for example, they didn't distinguish between gay and straight, they distinguished between penetrating and penetrated. It was considered normal for a Roman to enjoy penetrating someone else, male or female. The penetrated person, however, was considered weaker and not masculine. If you accused a Roman man of fucking other men, that would be considered normal, but if you accused him of enjoying getting fucked, that would be an insult. 

Later Christian Europe didn't think about orientation but about acts. They objected to sodomy. 

That said, men who were known to go in for sodomy, and especially men who encouraged young people to do it, could be hunted down and persecuted. This went on very late. Oscar Wilde, for example, had his life ruined because he was said to have corrupted (seduced to sodomy) the son of a rich man. This rich man, by the way, the Marquess of Queensbury, was an outspoken atheist. 

But if you read about Wilde's life, or about Andre Gide or Proust, it is clear that there is a kind of "community" of men in the know. They know who is welcoming and who isn't, where they can rent summer houses and where they can't, etc. 

It may be that this isn't a "community" in the sense we're using it now. They seldom advocated for their rights or tried to influence public opinion. The world wasn't ready for that. But they supported each other and knew each other. Think of the play-house that the Baron de Charlus has put together for himself and his male friends near the end of Proust's novel. That was a kind of community, though not a political one. 

I was surprised to discover that Tokyo had a thriving gay scene for years, even when America and Europe were behind. Several of the important translators and cultural critics in Japan in the 20th century were gay American servicemen in the post-war occupation who discovered that Japan was safer and more fun for them than back home. Seidensticker and Donald Keene and other names that expats all know. There is a funny story about the guy who translated the Nobel Prize winning Japanese novel into English who got bored at the Nobel banquet in Tokyo and ducked around the corner to a little gay SM club.

Bel Cherub19 is Sock of a already banned person

[Cherub19]

That said, men who were known to go in for sodomy, and especially men who encouraged young people to do it, could be hunted down and persecuted. This went on very late. Oscar Wilde, for example, had his life ruined because he was said to have corrupted (seduced to sodomy) the son of a rich man. This rich man, by the way, the Marquess of Queensbury, was an outspoken atheist. 

But if you read about Wilde's life, or about Andre Gide or Proust, it is clear that there is a kind of "community" of men in the know. They know who is welcoming and who isn't, where they can rent summer houses and where they can't, etc. 

It may be that this isn't a "community" in the sense we're using it now. They seldom advocated for their rights or tried to influence public opinion. The world wasn't ready for that. But they supported each other and knew each other. Think of the play-house that the Baron de Charlus has put together for himself and his male friends near the end of Proust's novel. That was a kind of community, though not a political one. 

I was surprised to discover that Tokyo had a thriving gay scene for years, even when America and Europe were behind. Several of the important translators and cultural critics in Japan in the 20th century were gay American servicemen in the post-war occupation who discovered that Japan was safer and more fun for them than back home. Seidensticker and Donald Keene and other names that expats all know. There is a funny story about the guy who translated the Nobel Prize winning Japanese novel into English who got bored at the Nobel banquet in Tokyo and ducked around the corner to a little gay SM club.

These examples of alleged persecution appear to be anecdotal. I’m really looking for an episode in history in which gays were persecuted. I readily admit that in different parts of the world, especially where Christianity and Islam are predominant, gays remained in the closet. There is no denying that homosexuality is considered absolutely evil and disgusting by many world religions. As a Muslim, I also conform to the traditional teaching of my Religion on this subject. Nonetheless, I find no clear example of gays being persecuted in history, even in the most orthodox and puritanical societies. And I believe your statement “this isn’t a community in the sense we’re using it now” has concluded the debate on this topic decisively in my favor. Thank you.

My aim in establishing this fact that the LGBTQ community is an invention of the 20th century is to build up a foundation for my academic thesis that this particular movement and community did not arise independently. Rather, it’s emergence and construction has been carefully planned and guided all along by an unseen hand, meaning by antagonistic forces behind the scenes, forces that have the capacity to shape the course of social and political evolution due to the incredible power they wield and wealth at their disposal. I am of course referring to the deep state and the banking establishment – the “powers that be” for lack of a better description. And one of the immediate aims, that has to a great extent been attained, in unleashing this new movement into the world, was to sabotage and undermine genuine civil rights movements and struggles for equality and justice which pose either a real or imagined threat to the hegemony of the “powers that be”.