'Seeking' God

[5thHorseman]

Genesis 7:11-24
King James Version (KJV)
 11In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

 12And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

 13In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

 14They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

 15And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

 16And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

 17And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

 18And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

 19And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

 20Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

 21And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

 22All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

 23And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

 24And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.


And he turned lots wife to salt....... For looking behind her at the destruction of Soddom and Gomorrah.

I could go on but it's boring and a lie.

[salty]

I know that you're saying this because you really don't believe he's real. What happened between you and God? I remember you mentioning that Christianity is responsible for all kinds of terrible things...but did something happen to you personally that you attribute to straight to God?

I guess I just find it difficult to hate something I don't believe is real. I don't believe Apollo is real but I don't hate him or hearing of him. He's just made up so I merely shrug at his name. Now...I would hate him if someone I loved refused to get medical treatment because they thought that Apollo would heal them...then I'd have a reason to be disgusted...what's your reason for disgust with God (since you don't believe in him)?

Hey Salty (nice pic btw it looks a happy scene :-)) I think you misunderstand the atheist perspective. Atheists really do not hate god, that would be absurd (as you recognize). They may dislike the concept or description of the god proposed either in scripture or metaphysically or both. When communicating this in shorthand sometimes the atheist might refer to god (wrongly) in the second person, this is not to be mistaken for actually secretly believing that god exists and hating them, being angry etc. It's bit like saying you hate the idea of something, when strictly speaking it is not possible to hate ideas.

Ahh...very clear, thank you. I see. I didn't accept that Frankie secretly believes in God, but I wondered if something happened that he would think would be all God's fault...IF he were real. Some people do that, you know? They don't believe God is real, but if he was he'd be terrible for "this event" that happened in my life or in history...you get me? I just wanted to have more an understanding of what that was specifically.

Thanks Captain, that picture is definitely my favorite one from my wedding.

---

OK, you clearly aren't getting this... I don't hate God! Are you fucking stupid?!

I hate God as much as I hate Sauron!!

Although, at least Sauron is quite cool

Captain explained it to me, just calm down Frankie.

---

Genesis 7:11-24
King James Version (KJV)
 11In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

 12And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

 13In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

 14They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

 15And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

 16And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

 17And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

 18And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

 19And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

 20Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

 21And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

 22All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

 23And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

 24And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.


And he turned lots wife to salt....... For looking behind her at the destruction of Soddom and Gomorrah.

I could go on but it's boring and a lie.

So the flood and the punishment for Lot's wife are two of the many reasons you...

1. don't believe in God
2. think..IF God was real he'd be terrible

[Mister Agenda]

There are multiple overlapping codes in DNA. These codes can translate DNA into many different types of critical functions and instructions using the same series of letters. So these letters have different meanings according to the rules used to translate them I would say this sufficiently qualifies for a level of abstraction to the overall code, not that this is actually a requirement to identify DNA as a langauge.

A language is a system of arbitrary signals used to communicate thoughts and feelings. DNA is not just instructions, it is like a robotic assembly line that makes the tools to build other tools and make other robots like itself as well as robots that do different things, including building even more robots to do even more things, and together they all build and maintain a collective mechanism aimed at getting another collective going. If you want to call all that a language in order to bring it down to a level you can understand, I can sympathize...but even if there is a designer, DNA is not a language because it doesn't speak to anyone one, it just assembles molecules.

The point about the transfer of DNA is, it can be copied and copied back with no loss of information.

DNA is not a perfect mechanism for storing information, each of us carries, on average, dozens of mutations. It's a tiny percentage, but it's not perfection.

It doesn't matter if I can get an organism from the DNA code on a computer disk. If this post was found by a civilization that had no record of the english language, would it cease to be english because no one could translate it?

That isn't relevant. DNA is both the blueprint and the factory and that is not what a language is.

I'll say it this way. There isn't a natural process to create that information, and all the information we have ever observed comes only from minds. Further, the information in DNA fits into categories of things which contain information, such as codes and languages. Therefore it is reasonable to conclude the information in DNA came from a mind.

You assert there isn't a natural process to create that information, although it is well-understood by biologists. The information in DNA came from the environment of the organism it is contained in, and again, the process by which this happens is well-understood (it's currently called the Modern Synthesis). Not wanting them to be true has no effect on the facts.

I don't believe in theistic evolution. I take a literal view on Genesis.

Fair enough, but you can't supplant the theory of evolution with something that explains less, assumes more, doesn't lead to further discoveries, and doesn't fit the physical evidence as well.

Also excellent evidence for a common designer.

Actually, a variety of novel patterns and mediums would be evidence for an omnisicent and omnipotent designer. This evidence, at best, indicates that if there is a designer, its work is about what we would expect from a team of mortal designers with more advanced technology than we have (maybe 100 years in advance of us should suffice), and varying goals and degrees of competency.

It's easy to say that because we can toy around with the design and make things happen, but that's quite a bit different from getting to the design in the first place. It would be like expecting C++ to emerge from a calculus. Spontaneous generation of life has never once been observed happening anywhere, and the sophistication of the cell, and the DNA molecule cannot be accounted for by darwinian processes.

---

It's easy to say that given millions of times more time and the right conditions, a self-replicating molecule could form. We've already had RNA form in the lab merely by setting up the right initial conditions. Darwinian processes act on anything that self-replicates, including a non-living molecule, which provides the bridge from the first self-replicator to cells, given hundreds of millions of years. Again, you're asserting that these processes can't account for the thing that's exactly what they account for. And why even bring it up? It's not as though if researchers concocted a soup that led to life forming spontaneously that you would start thinking that's what actually happened.

[Welsh cake]

2. think..IF God was real he'd be terrible

I agree, which is why I think you didn't intend to word the argument that way.

[Mister Agenda]

First of all, I don't understand much of what you said, Salty... It made little sense...

But, I would like to add that if I thought God and Satan existed, then I would gladly worship Satan over God. God is an prick.
Satan pretty much just called God out on his arseholey ways.

I know that you're saying this because you really don't believe he's real. What happened between you and God? I remember you mentioning that Christianity is responsible for all kinds of terrible things...but did something happen to you personally that you attribute to straight to God?

I guess I just find it difficult to hate something I don't believe is real. I don't believe Apollo is real but I don't hate him or hearing of him. He's just made up so I merely shrug at his name. Now...I would hate him if someone I loved refused to get medical treatment because they thought that Apollo would heal them...then I'd have a reason to be disgusted...what's your reason for disgust with God (since you don't believe in him)?

It's not strange to feel some antipathy for fictional characters like Voldemort and Darth Vader. It's impossible to get really miffed at them per se, because they're imaginary, but, speaking of imagination, can you imagine 80% of the USA believing Voldemort is real, and a good guy? Can you imagine how irritating that would be to an a-Voldemortist?

---

From what is shown in the Bible, what do you mean? The old testament? Do you think that justice can be dealt without the guilty being punished?

I think the death penalty would suffice.

Are you capable of going to the people that were punished in the Bible and determining if they were innocent? Are you capable of stopping any action that doesn't include yourself, that depends on the judgment of another? It's very unlikely that you personally can stop people from being impacted by the decisions of others or the consequences that people lay on themselves through their actions. Moreover, it's impossible for you to go into the past and right any war or genocide that happened, so since you have no control over those things, is your only response to hate God?

---

Who supposedly CAN do all that? Nope, the biblical God is clearly the result of a game of 'my God is better than yours' that got out of hand so much that the result is self-contradictory and cannot exist.

It is very hard to convey the understanding that overcomes people when they believe that God is real and the Bible is true.

I dunno. It sounds a lot like the understanding Scientologists get when they ascend to the third circle.

Anyone can have this understanding, all they have to do is be willing to believe and it will become clear to them too.

As many have noted, any religion can make this claim. What would make Christianity stand out is if you didn't have to believe it first for it to make sense.

Is there any way that you would be interested? Do you think anything short of a miraculous event could sway you?

What's Paul got that I haven't got?

---

Clear this up for me please Aleialoura. African apes have done things in the name of their imaginary friend? Are you relating evolution to Christians? This reminds me of a racial slur, so I need some clarification, please help me. thanks.

I can field this one: taxonomically we're all African Apes, in much the same sense that we're all mammals. It seems to me a way of saying we should remember our origins when we think we've got a handle on a divine reality.

---

Ahh...very clear, thank you. I see. I didn't accept that Frankie secretly believes in God, but I wondered if something happened that he would think would be all God's fault...IF he were real.

Thanks for that bit, you wouldn't believe how many Christians tell us we secretly believe in God.

[Shell B]

molehile

Guess what, Lucy? From the rules:

When using the quote function to quote other members, you may quote in whole or in part, but do not change the quoted text in any way. Breaking this rule will result in staff intervention. Depending on the circumstances surrounding the misquote(s), you may be warned or banned. Adding to the quoted text for clarification (ie. bolding, numbering, italics, etc.) is okay provided you indicate that the bolding and/or italics are yours and not the quoted member's and provided it doesn't change the meaning of the quoted text.

And it's molehill, you daft twat.

[fr0d0]

lucent is pink and can't reply? I guess that's a win then :S

[Shell B]

Being pink is not a permanent state nor did I turn him pink.

[Faith No More]

Lucent is not alone in his beliefs and he's not being arrogant, nor preaching that he's superior. It may seem like he's doing that because he's tactfully and assertively defending the gospel of Jesus Christ, but not once has he declared himself above you or anyone. Lucent is a sinner just like me, like you and everybody else. Lucent is saying that he has experienced the transforming power of Jesus Christ in his life and wants to help anyone that desires God to seek God, like he did. His experiences are valid, like yours and filled with the essence of who he is and where his foundation for disbelief AND belief began. I think Lucent is doing an excellent job of making the claims of the Bible of Jesus, clear! It is very hard to convey the understanding that overcomes people when they believe that God is real and the Bible is true. Anyone can have this understanding, all they have to do is be willing to believe and it will become clear to them too.

What you and Lucent fail to realize is that these are all beliefs and nothing more. The arrogance comes in when you misrepresent them as the ultimate truth and at the same time dismiss anyone else's belief as the work of the devil. It's highly conceited to preach so openly that your god is the one true god when you have no more evidence for this than an ancient book with so many holes in it that people spend their whole lives trying to justify its errors. I would have no problem with what you say if you could humble yourselves a little and admit that those are nothing more than beliefs. The worst part of this whole charade is that you defend yourselves as not being arrogant, but that you are just proclaiming the truth.

Arrogance thy name is Christianity.

[fr0d0]

I didn't say you turned him pink Shell. There seem to be a lot of ppl taking advantage of his enforced silence.