[Serious] Woman raped while onlookers did nothing

[The Architect Of Fate]

It' s simple really.

You can' t hit shit in full automatic.


Do the research - it is a proven fact that through history the number of bullets needed to inflict a single enemy casualty has gone up as rifles were given higher capacity and increased rate of fire.

Nothing beats a carefully placed single shot.

Yup and now you can make more well-placed shots 

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Full auto is for crowd control, not for hitting a single target (unless the target is close).  It is a support weapon, and is very effective at killing, when there are many targets.  It also suppresses enemy fire.

For single targets at any distance, you want semi-auto.  You will re-aim after each shot.

Nothing of what you said, has to do with daily civilian gun death, handgun or high capacity automatic.

I am talking strictly about volume of firearms made and sold and the ease of obtaining them, and a crappy vetting system.

Of course you can train military or police to use a single shot. But you cannot apply that to civilians, because right now, our laws suck. 

But to say in war there is no such thing as spray, to kill en mass is absurd. Dresden was carpet bombing and it killed 10s of thousands of civilians regardless if the intent was to punish the Nazis. But that is an entirely different context. Fat Man And Little Boy killed innocent civilians too. But we are not talking about conventional war here. We are talking about industry, like big tobacco, and the fossil fuel industry. 

I get sick of folks arguing over size of weapon, or "I didn't, or wouldn't do that" and " I have the right".

Any zoologist, say like Steve Irwin, would tell you it isn't wise to screw with cobras, while it could be argued someone does need to understand them and handle them to educate the public . But it would be insane to sell cobras like candy bars. When someone argues "an object cannot act on it's own", they are correct. But, if you produce asbestos and don't care whom it gets sick, it is about the manufacturers not caring about whom their products end up hurting. 

The nutcase who went 32 stories up in the Vegas hotel with dozens of spray weapons and thousands of rounds, was not promoting firearm safety, he was able to do what he did, because our laws SUCK.

(Bold mine)

Steve Irwin wasn’t a zoologist.

Boru

[Brian37]

So back to the woman who was raped while other passengers looked on...opinions on that or is this just going to devolve into another giving away guns like candy thread?

I think everyone can agree crimes like what we are talking about should not happen. But it is hard to not react when you have the GOP offer up cutting funding for everything and having a no rules attitude. 

You cannot tell me the far right would not argue, these same people on this transit system, if they all had guns, the rape would not have happened.

[arewethereyet]

So back to the woman who was raped while other passengers looked on...opinions on that or is this just going to devolve into another giving away guns like candy thread?

I think everyone can agree crimes like what we are talking about should not happen. But it is hard to not react when you have the GOP offer up cutting funding for everything and having a no rules attitude. 

You cannot tell me the far right would not argue, these same people on this transit system, if they all had guns, the rape would not have happened.

Shut up. Just shut up. Please.

[HappySkeptic]

Okay, I've read through the whole thread, which was originally about people not intervening.

I think Brian37 originally pointed out a fact - people in groups do not usually stick their neck out or take responsibility. They assume someone else will. That's why when someone is in distress that you are helping, you don't say "someone call 911" -- it won't happen. You have to actually tell some particular person to do it.

How hard can it be for people to have said - "I am calling 911" out loud to this guy? If you make him feel afraid, he will get limp and try to get away.

The problem with the "I'd kick his ass" crowd is -- you're either full of shit, stupid, or you better have skills. If you engage in physical violence with some stranger, you better be willing and able to put them down fast. A fight such as that has no rules, and could easily get you killed. You intend to brutally win, or you don't start it.

It is the same with a gun - you never pull one out unless you actually intend to kill someone with it. That also means it must be legal to do so. You don't wave guns around -- that will either get you shot, or arrested.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Okay, I've read through the whole thread, which was originally about people not intervening.

I think Brian37 originally pointed out a fact - people in groups do not usually stick their neck out or take responsibility.  They assume someone else will.  That's why when someone is in distress that you are helping, you don't say "someone call 911" -- it won't happen.  You have to actually tell some particular person to do it.

How hard can it be for people to have said - "I am calling 911" out loud to this guy?  If you make him feel afraid, he will get limp and try to get away.

The problem with the "I'd kick his ass" crowd is -- you're either full of shit, stupid, or you better have skills.  If you engage in physical violence with some stranger, you better be willing and able to put them down fast.  A fight such as that has no rules, and could easily get you killed.  You intend to brutally win, or you don't start it.

It is the same with a gun - you never pull one out unless you actually intend to kill someone with it.  That also means it must be legal to do so.  You don't wave guns around -- that will either get you shot, or arrested.

As a part of the ‘I’d kick his ass crowd’, I feel compelled to point out that I’m 6’4”, weigh 215, and I’m built like someone who played rugby union for 30 years (because I played rugby union for 30 years).

Boru

[onlinebiker]

Okay, I've read through the whole thread, which was originally about people not intervening.

I think Brian37 originally pointed out a fact - people in groups do not usually stick their neck out or take responsibility.  They assume someone else will.  That's why when someone is in distress that you are helping, you don't say "someone call 911" -- it won't happen.  You have to actually tell some particular person to do it.

How hard can it be for people to have said - "I am calling 911" out loud to this guy?  If you make him feel afraid, he will get limp and try to get away.

The problem with the "I'd kick his ass" crowd is -- you're either full of shit, stupid, or you better have skills.  If you engage in physical violence with some stranger, you better be willing and able to put them down fast.  A fight such as that has no rules, and could easily get you killed.  You intend to brutally win, or you don't start it.

It is the same with a gun - you never pull one out unless you actually intend to kill someone with it.  That also means it must be legal to do so.  You don't wave guns around -- that will either get you shot, or arrested.

Concerning bold -

This is absolutely incorrect.

You NEVER " shoot to kill".

You shoot for center mass - and keep shooting until the threat stops.

So - if you pull your gun - and the bad guy quits - you are done. You have NO LEGAL STANDING TO SHOOT SOMEONE WHO IS NO LONGER A THREAT. If the bad guy keeps misbehaving - fire away. YOU KEEP SHOOTING TILL HE STOPS. If he happens to die - it' s not your problem - as long as a reasonable person finds you had no other recourse.

[zwanzig]

Okay, I've read through the whole thread, which was originally about people not intervening.

I think Brian37 originally pointed out a fact - people in groups do not usually stick their neck out or take responsibility.  They assume someone else will.  That's why when someone is in distress that you are helping, you don't say "someone call 911" -- it won't happen.  You have to actually tell some particular person to do it.

How hard can it be for people to have said - "I am calling 911" out loud to this guy?  If you make him feel afraid, he will get limp and try to get away.

The problem with the "I'd kick his ass" crowd is -- you're either full of shit, stupid, or you better have skills.  If you engage in physical violence with some stranger, you better be willing and able to put them down fast.  A fight such as that has no rules, and could easily get you killed.  You intend to brutally win, or you don't start it.

It is the same with a gun - you never pull one out unless you actually intend to kill someone with it.  That also means it must be legal to do so.  You don't wave guns around -- that will either get you shot, or arrested.

Concerning bold -

This is absolutely incorrect.

You NEVER " shoot to kill".

You shoot for center mass - and keep shooting until the threat stops.

So - if you pull your gun - and the bad guy quits - you are done. You have NO LEGAL STANDING TO SHOOT SOMEONE WHO IS NO LONGER A THREAT. If the bad guy keeps misbehaving - fire away. YOU KEEP SHOOTING TILL HE STOPS. If he happens to die - it' s not your problem - as long as a reasonable person finds you had no other recourse.

I thought that phrase was meant as a caution not as an actual prescription of where to shoot. If you take out a gun, whether you're trained to use it or you have intentions just to threaten, anything can happen. Mistakes, accidents, malfunctions, etc. Someone could die from a bullet being fired. That's what that saying means. You are taking the risk that someone could potentially die if you take out a gun, so, it is a caution to be able to handle that responsibility.

[onlinebiker]

If you are forced into a legitimate self defense situation against an aggressor - the legal reponsibility is on the aggressor in event of you killing them.


Any responsibility you may feel is the result of being a decent person with a conscience.

[HappySkeptic]

It is the same with a gun - you never pull one out unless you actually intend to kill someone with it.  That also means it must be legal to do so.  You don't wave guns around -- that will either get you shot, or arrested.

Concerning bold -

This is absolutely incorrect.

You NEVER " shoot to kill".

You shoot for center mass - and keep shooting until the threat stops.

So - if you pull your gun - and the bad guy quits - you are done. You have NO LEGAL STANDING TO SHOOT SOMEONE WHO IS NO LONGER A THREAT. If the bad guy keeps misbehaving - fire away. YOU KEEP SHOOTING TILL HE STOPS. If he happens to die - it' s not your problem - as long as a reasonable person finds you had no other recourse.

Okay, I'll modify it "you must be willing to fire until the threat is stopped".  In many cases, this will involve killing, whether that is desired or not.

It is the same idea with martial arts - the purpose is to stop the person's ability to continue the fight.  A high skill artist can stop a fight with minimal serious damage to the other person.  A low skill martial artist (like me) will either get his ass kicked, or might accidentally kill the person.