Love is intrinsically selfish

[Welsh cake]

Empathy is selfless. Love is selfish.

Do you agree?

Like for example a couple and parents-to-be desperately want a child to "love" and drag that life into existence without any consideration for its well-being or future. It would appear people I see and hear about whenever they mention the label "Love" are using it in a self-serving context because they want that "feel good" sensation that comes along with doing something selfless for another.

[frankiej]

So true.

[Phaedra]

I agree with your example, but disagree with your opinion. Is it selfish of me to love my rats, mother, father, and sister? If so, I don't see how. I didn't bring them into existence so that I could have something to feel good about. And I care for their well-being because I love them.

Honestly, I don't get a "feel-good" sensation from doing something selfless. I simply consider it the right thing to do. Why should I pat myself on the back for not being an asshole?

[The Grand Nudger]

Why must we decide between these two? As if love were some base element of the emotions. It could be a little more complicated. There may be more choices than these two.

My love is selfless and my empathy is selfish, now what?

(because someone has to pat you on the back Pha)

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Why should I pat myself on the back for not being an asshole?

Because that would mean you belong to a species previously unknown to science. Or of course you may simply be a sociopath.


Two of my life observations;

(1)We human beings are essentially self interested animals who have formed the conceit that we are somehow 'special'

(2) There are altruistic acts, many. I've even been guilty of them myself from time-to-time. However, there are no altruistic people as far as I can tell.

The broad name for my position is 'Egoism', specifically, 'psychological egoism'

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Below is an outline from Wikipedia.However,egoism is a nuanced philosophy and worth a look.

The debate

Psychological egoism is controversial. Proponents argue that it is true either because reflection upon human psychology reveals as much[2] or that it is empirically supported.[3]

Critics argue that it is false either because it is an over-simplified interpretation of behaviour[4][5][6] or that there exists empirical evidence of altruistic behaviour.[7] Recently, some have argued that evolutionary theory provides evidence against it.[8]

Critics have also stated that proponents of psychological egoism often confuse the satisfaction of their own desires with the satisfaction of their own self-regarding desires. Even though it is true that every human being seeks his own satisfaction, this sometimes may only be achieved via the well-being of his neighbor. An example of this situation could be phoning for an ambulance when a car accident has happened. In this case, the caller desires the well-being of the victim, even though the desire itself is the caller's own.[9] Psychological egoism asserts that all such desires are ultimately derived from self-interest. For example, German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche argued, in the §133 of his The Dawn, that in such cases compassionate impulses arise out of the projection of our identity unto the object of our feeling. He gives some hypothetical examples as illustrations to his thesis: that of a person, feeling horrified after witnessing a personal feud, coughing blood, or that of the impulse felt to save a person who drowns in the water. In such cases, according to Nietzsche, there comes into play unconscious fears regarding our own safety. The suffering of another person is felt as a threat to our own happiness and sense of safety, because it reveals our own vulnerability to misfortunes, and thus, by relieving it, one could also ameliorate those personal sentiments.
[edit] The problem of apparent altruism

Psychological egoism may seem at first obviously false, because there are many acts that appear to be altruistic which are common and well known, such as self-sacrifice and gratuitous help.

As David Hume once wrote, "What interest can a fond mother have in view, who loses her health by assiduous attendance on her sick child, and afterwards languishes and dies of grief, when freed, by its death [the child's], from the slavery of that attendance?".[5] It seems incorrect to describe such a mother's goal as self-interested.

Psychological egoists, however, respond that helping others in such ways is ultimately motivated by some form of self-interest, such as non-sensory satisfaction, the expectation of reciprocation, the desire to gain respect or reputation, or by the expectation of a reward in a putative afterlife. The helpful action is merely instrumental to these ultimately selfish goals.

In the ninth century, "Mohammed Ibn Al-Jahm Al-Barmaki محمد بن الجـَهْم البَرمَكي" has been quoted saying:

"No one deserves thanks from another about something he has done for him or goodness he has done, he is either willing to get a reward from God, therefore he wanted to serve himself, or he wanted to get a reward from people, therefore, he has done that to get profit for himself, or to be mentioned and praised by people, therefore, to it is also for himself, or due to his mercy and tenderheartedness, so he has simply done that goodness to pacify these feelings and treat himself."[10]

This sort of explanation appears to be close to the view of La Rochefoucauld[11] (and perhaps Hobbes[12]).

According to psychological hedonism (a form of psychological egoism), the ultimate egoistic motive is to gain good feelings of pleasure and avoid bad feelings of pain. Other, less restricted forms of psychological egoism may allow the ultimate goal of a person to include such things as avoiding punishments from oneself or others (such as guilt or shame) and attaining rewards (such as pride, self-worth, power or reciprocal beneficial action).

The terms "egoism" and "egotism" may refer to:

Egotism, an excessive or exaggerated sense of self-importance
Ethical egoism, the doctrine that holds that individuals ought to do what is in their self-interest
Psychological egoism, the doctrine that holds that individuals are always motivated by self-interest
Rational egoism, the belief that it is rational to act in one's self-interest
Solipsism (sometimes called egoism), the belief that only one's self exists, or that only the experiences of one's self can be verified
Egoist anarchism, a form of anarchism, as most often represented by Max Stirner
Egocentrism, inability to "put oneself in other peoples' shoes"

[Phaedra]

Why should I pat myself on the back for not being an asshole?

Because that would mean you belong to a species previously unknown to science. Or of course you may simply be a sociopath.


Two of my life observations;

(1)We human beings are essentially self interested animals who have formed the conceit that we are somehow 'special'

(2) There are altruistic acts, many. I've even been guilty of them myself from time-to-time. However, there are no altruistic people as far as I can tell.

The broad name for my position is 'Egoism', specifically, 'psychological egoism'

*shrug* Sorry, I just don't get the warm fuzzies when I'm nice to people. It just seems normal.

My experience of human behavior has been much different. But then again, I am not like most people in most ways.

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(because someone has to pat you on the back Pha)

There is no middle ground with me :p People are either hitting me over the head with a frying pan or patting me on the back.


ETA: Funny you should mention the sociopath thing...I do indeed have sociopathic tendencies. I know that everyone thinks they have a bit of it in them, but I actually have been diagnosed as such.

[Welsh cake]

And I care for their well-being because I love them.

As we know, "love" is conditional. Why do you love them?

Honestly, I don't get a "feel-good" sensation from doing something selfless. I simply consider it the right thing to do.

Because you'd feel terrible if you didn't? Performing said act to accomplish an avoidance of guilt is also intrinsically selfish.

Why should I pat myself on the back for not being an asshole?

I know a lot of people who do just that. Some even go as far as to say "Well I've helped that guy, now I can be an absolute prick to the next person I have to talk to". I've tried to see if they demonstrate any signs of an antisocial personality disorder, however, there's nothing apparently wrong with these rich bastards brains. Being a douche isn't usually characterised as a mental illness.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Well I've helped that guy, now I can be an absolute prick to the next person I have to talk to

Ah, you met my devoutly-Catholic father? (the next person was usually mum of one of us kids)

To make somewhat pompous observation: People who have the need to declare a virtue or deny a vice are usually lying,if only to themselves.

[Phaedra]

As we know, "love" is conditional. Why do you love them?

No idea. I don't even like them, honestly.

Because you'd feel terrible if you didn't? Performing said act to accomplish an avoidance of guilt is also intrinsically selfish.

Nah. I don't feel guilty when I'm a dick. It's just another facet of my personality.

I know a lot of people who do just that. Some even go as far as to say "Well I've helped that guy, now I can be an absolute prick to the next person I have to talk to". I've tried to see if they demonstrate any signs of an antisocial personality disorder, however, there's nothing apparently wrong with these rich bastards brains. Being a douche isn't usually characterised as a mental illness.

I know a lot of people like that. It's very strange behavior. I used to work at a coffee shop, and during the holidays customers could donate one dollar to a children's charity if they wanted to. We would ask at the end of transaction if they wanted to (keep in mind that it was only one dollar and that they were paying five dollars for a cup of coffee), and most people would snap bitchily, "I already donated to xyz!" So yes, apparently donating your spare change to the Salvation Army means that you can be a dick to your coffee girl.

[The Grand Nudger]

LOL, raping the poor folks $5 for a cup of joe, and then to have the audacity to ask if they would like to donate money. Well, you bastards, I would, but since you've been charging me $5 for my coffee, I'm flat fucking broke!