Job

[Belacqua]

He told Job he can't even begin to comprehend the machinations of the divine.

Of course there are as many interpretations as interpreters. There is a Christian version that's maybe not mainstream, but fascinating. 

The point in this reading is that Job doesn't give up demanding an explanation. He doesn't suffer patiently (despite the legendary "patience of Job"). He is unsatisfied with all logical explanations and rationalization.

What he gets is not logical, conceptual knowledge. What he gets is a direct vision of God, out of the whirlwind. Despite the words God speaks here (basically, who are you to question me?) Job gets a kind of knowledge which no one else in the story has -- direct vision.

For mystical Christians, such a vision is life-changing and fulfilling, even without gaining any new conceptual knowledge. 

The epilogue in which his riches return is symbolic of the new richness of life he finds due to his vision. These riches have to be expressed in material terms to the reader, because very few of us will ever experience such a vision, and know its ineffable satisfaction.

[h311inac311]

What amount of pain is worth eternal paradise? What perishing thing can I lose or gain that would deter me from pursuing that which can never perish? 

If you truly believe what you claim, then all almost infinite suffering is no big deal.  The more suffering, the better the paradise in the next life.  No pain, no gain, eh?

I repudiate this belief.  Not only that, I will actively fight against this idea whenever I hear it.  It is a recipe for justifying evil, doing evil, or letting evil be done.

So if there were eternal rewards for doing good and eternal punishments for doing bad you would do more evil? How can you be certain that if you use heaven as an excuse to do evil that God will let you enter?




And if God is real what kind of obligation would he have towards people who don't even acknowledge his existence?

[The Valkyrie]

Well I would argue that far more of life's suffering is brought upon us by satan. From what I can tell God's most basic rule can be summarized as this, "you reap what you sow." This is the type of fair world that YHWH wants to establish here on Earth, however he also values free will and enables both the Angels and humans to choose between good and evil. Satan was the one who attacked Job's family, friends and cattle, not God, God simply chose not to protect Job from Satan's wrath so why are you giving the accuser a free pass to kill steal and destroy?

How is that I managed to reap breast cancer?

Ditto.

[The Architect Of Fate]

So if there were eternal rewards for doing good and eternal punishments for doing bad you would do more evil?

If the good is what a psychotic monster like the god of the bible commands. Then no self-respecting person would not do evil if evil is defined by divine command theory 

 How can you be certain that if you use heaven as an excuse to do evil that God will let you enter?

People have used the reward of heaven to do unspeakable things if those people are worthy of heaven then heaven is the real hell.

And if God is real what kind of obligation would he have towards people who don't even acknowledge his existence?

A god who doesn't treat everyone equally regardless of whether they believe in him or not is a monster.

[The Architect Of Fate]

I don't think the book is centrally about the virtues of unwavering faith. That's more of a sub-theme.

What I got from Job was more a lesson about hubris... "man thinking he can understand God and his motivations"...

We, as readers get a sneak peak at the celestial events that led up to Job's tribulations. But Job and his friends have no idea what's going on. Their speeches, even Job's, all make incorrect guesses about what God is doing.

God's speech isn't about how wonderful it is that Job was able to keep his faith. It was an admonishment. He told Job he can't even begin to comprehend the machinations of the divine. (Again, anti-hubris). The epilogue where Job receives lottery winnings was just to portray the God character as being good natured.

It seems less about hubris and more about maintaining unthinking faith. The idea you can't understand a god's motives is essentially an excuse the religious use to absolve themselves of having to answer any hard questions and no amount of lottery winnings make up for the horrific violations Job suffers at the hands of a cruel god. Giving a dog a bone after you have beaten it can never make up for the beating.

[h311inac311]

I study self-defense for this purpose, I would like to be able to stop an assault in progress and help protect innocent lives if I can.

Of course I don't treat the creator the same way that I would treat a man or an animal. So I wouldn't try to fight YHWH if he were attacking an innocent person, but I would at the least pray about it and be curios as to why he would do such a thing.

-and there's you, certifying in advance your own moral failure, as dictated by your beliefs...but also that your religious beliefs and your actual day to day beliefs are completely unaligned.  Let's just hope that you don't witness an assault after a bad plate of shrimp makes you hallucinate gods, huh?

Is it possible that an omnipotent being can come to conclusions which are alien to our own understanding?

It seems that most people here are more upset with God than Job is despite only reading of his suffering but having never experienced exactly what he went through.

I knew this would be a difficult topic when I started it, and so far I am not disappointed by the response I've gotten. Ultimately you either trust God to do what he will with his creation or you don't, but I believe that an eternal reward is what makes all of this suffering truly worthwhile. Even if we lived in a fair world where the righteous prosper and those who do evil always get punished; what would any of our labor amount to if our destiny is dust? Our physical bodies are destined to return to this Earth at some point and nothing we build, save or work for is ever guaranteed to last forever. 

What amount of pain is worth eternal paradise? What perishing thing can I lose or gain that would deter me from pursuing that which can never perish? 

(I know most of you are atheists so please just take the last two questions as hypotheticals.)

Trust?  Who needs trust?  God actively fucked job in the story - he can give him all the lollipops he wants after the fact - in this life or the next..but that won't change that fact.  It's not something I could bring myself to do, so it's a pretty direct line from that to the fact that I wouldn't worship a god that did it.  

I've heard that some murderers are sometimes very remorseful, and also do things to try and make it up to the families of their victims.  I rate your gods paradise no higher than that..but you and I both know it's alot shittier.  It's got a pretty exclusive guest list.  God is not contrite.

Meanwhile, this notion that things are worthless unless they're eternal?  Speaking of alien conclusions, that one's entirely alien to me.  I'm not willing to be a dirtbag to get some item just because it lasts forever.  That would only amount to eternal shame, for me.  Nothing to do with atheism, merely that I possess a strong moral character which you..according to you..in the presence of your god, could not.  That's the great pity of a transactional faith.  You want the thing some evil being offers, and you'll debase yourself for it, and you know it.

Tell me how anyone could trust turning their back to you?  What wouldn't you do to me or anyone else, or be willing to passively watch done to me or anyone else, for punch and pie in the sky?

When did I advocate for debasing myself? 
You know Jacob was attacked by YHWH right? 

And after God did what he did Job somehow wasn't as upset with the idea of God as you seem to be. I trust God, you don't trust God at all, I get that but saying that trusting that God is good is somehow the same as letting a violent stranger come to your house and do what he will with your family is a bit of a stretch. I'm sure that if Job had the chance to fight off the bandits which came for his possessions and family he would have done that and there is nothing I find in the Bible that would prevent someone from doing that, especially not during the time of the Old Covenant. 

But what none of you seem to be addressing is that the devil exists too, notice how he keeps getting a free pass to cause as much trouble as he wants to. Why is it that every time a scheme of the devil succeeds God receives the blame? And what about the bandits? Why don't we blame them for their behavior towards Job and his family? Are you entitled to have a hedge of protection against the wiles of the devil if you do not even believe that God exists? If you wake up and find out that random stuff happens in a randomly generated universe with no intelligent designer then I guess you shouldn't be surprised, correct?

As it is written, "but know this, that if the master had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into."

I just met you on the internet so I don't know why you would trust a stranger with your back but the eternal reward of paradise is for those who remain loyal to God's commandments.

In Romans 13 these commandments are, Thou shalt not commit adultery, theft, murder, or covet that which does not belong to you and love others as you would want to be loved.

Helios, "A god who doesn't treat everyone equally regardless of whether they believe in him or not is a monster." Please explain this point further. If you think that God is a monster then would if for you he acts like a monster? Why would that bother you and why would you feel entitled to be treated differently? Would you also treat your attorney like a monster and expect him to help you win your court case? If you were a politician would you spit in your bodyguard's face and then be surprised if he wasn't there to protect you when you actually needed him? For your sake I pray my God would find it in his heart to be merciful.

Jacob fought back against the figure who tackled him at night and was able to dislocate their hip, this is how he got his new name meaning "to wrestle with God and overcome."

[The Architect Of Fate]

Unless the devil created himself and the devil is more powerful than god. God is without an excuse...

[h311inac311]

Unless the devil created himself and the devil is more powerful than god. God is without an excuse...

Lets say that someone has a knife and starts chancing a woman through the streets, and there is only one witness, a 6ft tall man who is a UFC heavyweight champion. Presumably he could defeat this knife wielding foe. But for one reason or another chooses not to. In your justice system should this fighter be charged with murder? And would the man holding the knife get off scott free?

[The Architect Of Fate]

Lets say that someone has a knife and starts chancing a woman through the streets, and there is only one witness, a 6ft tall man who is a UFC heavyweight champion. Presumably he could defeat this knife wielding foe. But for one reason or another chooses not to. In your justice system should this fighter be charged with murder? And would the man holding the knife get off scott free?

No, the UFC fighter should be charged with negligence leading to murder and the knife-wielder should be charged with murder. Also, this scenario fails because unlike God the UFC champion didn't create the knife-wielder, to begin with, and the UFC fighter might be risking his life-fighting someone with a weapon. God has no such limitation. So he has even less of an excuse.

[arewethereyet]

The UFC fighter is a witness to a man chasing someone.  There's no law that says he has to step in.  He should call 911 at least.  The guy is a witness.

The guy with the knife is menacing/threatening the woman.  How that's handled in the courts is going to vary.  

Just because a guy is big and trained to fight a certain way doesn't require him to play Superman.

Nowhere was murder or even stabbing or cutting mentioned in the pitiful scenario.