The hijab (etc) is immodest

[Leonardo17]

There are european/american women who wear the hijab by choice, too, you know. So try including this category in your next unproved claim.

It was said above that the hijab is a symbol of the oppression of women.  This doesn’t mean that all women who wear it are oppressed.

Boru

It still means that they themselves are oppressing themselves and their bodies:
 
As I said, I am from a culture in which  headscarf is all but uncommon. Yet you have to see a woman with a Burkini trying to enjoy a Mediterranean beach at 40 degree Celsius together with her husband with your own eyes to believe it.
 
Religiously or rationally speaking: It is possible for that women to decide to take a hike in the woods instead. Why is she even taking the risk of trying to swim like this in the sea? Why is she even torturing her body like this under the heat? She could stay in the hotel room since she is not even going to get a tan. So the problem is: Is it even possible for her (and her husband) to enjoy the beach like anyone else does?
 
And if not: Then I don’t believe that their interpretation of religion can be correct. Why would any God of any religion prohibit human beings from enjoying the sea and the beach?
 
+ Islam forbids all forms of self-mutilation / self-inflicted pain or torture. That’s the idea behind the prohibition of Alcohol for instance. One has a duty toward his / her body.
 
So all I am doing here is criticism.
 
So if someone is defending this or any other position. I suggest you should check to see to what degree they are open to debate and criticism.
 
Here (In my country) they made it a blasphemy, a sign of being openly fascist (I still don’t know if that means being a Urkanian / Vlodymyr Zelensky Style Nazi Fascist or a fascist in the real sense of the word but that’s the word they will use. Or they will call you an “Islamophobic” person if you are a foreigner).
 
So All I am doing here is to debate the issue. If it is a matter of freedom of religion, than that person will not get angry and will try to explain to you the reason of her behavior as much as she can. But one has to be careful with a man or woman who blindly defends some dogmatic interpretation of Islam and constantly blames other of being Islamophobic / fascist etc…  
 
Of course there are extremist people in Europe and in America too. I would never deny that. But I believe that the majority of the people living in those countries are very tolerant and accepting toward different cultures. And I believe that there are people with middle-eastern origins who will go to these countries but then refuse to make any effort to do some work on themselves and I think this is the very core of the problem.
 
The Industrial revolution happened in 1900. The end of Colonialism in the 60’s. The Feminist movement (mostly) in the 70’s. So it is normal that some people can be middle age-minded in many ways. And this is not a problem that concerns only Muslim women with a headscarf. There are many American Men who can be very middle-age minded too.
 
All I am promoting here is that these issues must be debated and that all parties involved must be open to a degree of criticism.
 
Also: All type of religious dogmatism / fanatism is dangerous and detrimental to humanity as a whole.
 
So if they say they are, say, “normal”, wouldn’lk in the park normally once, just to try it?
 
This is my viewpoint on the subject.

[Leonardo17]

What is the point in addressing a discussion that is over two years old?  Even if the participants are still here, they've shown no sign that they intend to be actively involved.

I am reading all the posts and I am doing some brainstroming if it's allright with you.

I sort of have a personal need to work out this issue in my mind.

[Angrboda]

What is the point in addressing a discussion that is over two years old?  Even if the participants are still here, they've shown no sign that they intend to be actively involved.

I am reading all the posts and I am doing some brainstroming if it's allright with you.

I sort of have a personal need to work out this issue in my mind.

Okay. Fair enough. But why do you need an audience?

[R00tKiT]

2) I / He is not puting any word in nobody's mouth. The officail view on that is: If she is >18 it's her decision. 

Well we can give the "official view" the middle finger. The number "18" is arbitrary and reaching that age doesn't correspond to any abrupt maturation in the girl's brain, so why are you asking Muslim women to follow the so-called official view ?

3) That can be relative. Very relative. Let me ask you a question: How do you know if you want to mary a girl who is wearing the Hijab?

It is actually permissible to look at your fiancée and, according to some anecdotes in Sahih Abi Dawood, this includes whatever "features" -for the lack of a better word- in her body that'll make you attracted to her.

This means that you don't know much about Islam either, you're just here trying to "school" Muslims that they should follow some official view, the same official view that led to unimaginably high counts of rapes and all kinds of sexual violence, to say nothing of the explosion of the porn industry in the countries that you regard as role models of valuing women.

[Eclectic]

In Islamic countries, there are the following problems for women freedom of clothing:
1- In countries like Iran, the government determines the type of clothing for women. Women do not have the right to choose the type of clothes to be in the street.
If they wear other clothes, the police will arrest them and send them to prison or they will be penalized or they will be beaten and killed.

2- Satanic religion, Islam is designed and propagated by Satan in such a way that it creates fear in men that if they accept that it is good to remove the hijab and it is good for wives and  doughters, they will be accused to they are poor-spirited and scoundrel  and will be scandalized. And they are afraid that other Muslim men will start teasing and insulting their daughters, wives and sisters or disrespecting them [!?]

Some clerics in defense of the hijab preach that if a Muslim woman goes street without the hijab, other Muslim men have the right to insult her and even beat her or even rape her! Indeed, some Iranian clerics have given such advice in previous years!

In Iran, 2-3 news are published in the press every year. There are fathers and brothers have killed their daughter and sister because they secretly made a permanent marriage contract with their favorite son! They have worn hijab. Their goal is permanent marriage!

Why did these men become murderers? Because some Islamic missionaries have said that a girl does not have the right to choose, and if a girl chooses her own husband, then she is a degenerate girl! And they have said that a father who gives such authority to his daughter is poor-spirited and scoundrel!

The girl knows this so lives secretly. But his father or brothers found him with police tricks and killed him, and many people congratulated him!

[Eclectic]

 they are poor-spirited and scoundrel  and will be scandalized. 

Bi Gheyrat = poor-spirited and scoundrel
بی غیرت

what is gheyrat?
Men's habit or men's attribute that occurs due to some subjects, events and happenings, and in that state, a man should become madly angry and hurt the other party, not have forgiveness, and not negotiate and compromise.

If he wants to forgive, he must first shout in fear and beat the person he considers guilty, if some people fall at his feet to beg for forgiveness.
 The occurrence of many types of gheyrat is either the result of previous indoctrination or the fear of being ridiculed. Islam says this is fetri. fetri = sacred instinct!

For example, as soon as a man hears of his wife having sex with another man, he must either kill his wife immediately or ask the court to arrest his wife and she must be stoned to death. He should not have forgiveness at all, otherwise they will say that he did not have gheyrat.

Or a man, if his wife or relatives do not wear hijab, they say that he does not have gheyrat.

In Islamic societies, mullahs and people encourage each other to identify and ridicule men who lack gheyrat and disturb their women.

All this proves that Allah is Satan and that the religion of Islam has come to mislead the people of the world.

[Mister Agenda]

In Islamic countries, there are the following problems for women freedom of clothing:
1- In countries like Iran, the government determines the type of clothing for women. Women do not have the right to choose the type of clothes to be in the street.
If they wear other clothes, the police will arrest them and send them to prison or they will be penalized or they will be beaten and killed.

2- Satanic religion, Islam is designed and propagated by Satan in such a way that it creates fear in men that if they accept that it is good to remove the hijab and it is good for wives and  doughters, they will be accused to they are poor-spirited and scoundrel  and will be scandalized. And they are afraid that other Muslim men will start teasing and insulting their daughters, wives and sisters or disrespecting them [!?]

Just want to make sure I understand you correctly, you're agnostic but you believe in Satan?

[Leonardo17]

I am reading all the posts and I am doing some brainstroming if it's allright with you.

I sort of have a personal need to work out this issue in my mind.

Okay.  Fair enough.  But why do you need an audience?

Because of all the things I wrote basically. Similar to Trump's MAGA movement, similar to European populist neo-fascist movements and in a way that has very strong parallels with the actual Russian propaganda machine that regularly calls the Ukrainians that are defending their independence things like “drug-addicts” of “Nazis” the so called islamist movement in the world is based on lies. And I can refer you to Islamic scholars who will compare this attitude of political islamists to the attitude of the Pharaoh Ramses II in the story of Moses (and they are totally right about it).

One of their important lies is their lie about the headscarf. The Muslim Holy Book says “Cover your intimate parts” but they are willing to understand this as “hang in the street like a living ghost and while you’re on it, be a ghost so I can easily rule you and everyone else”. So I am revolted.

Once again. My non-acceptance does not include intolerance. The two are not synonymous. My issue is the ideology. Not the object.

[Leonardo17]

2) I / He is not puting any word in nobody's mouth. The officail view on that is: If she is >18 it's her decision. 

Well we can give the "official view" the middle finger. The number "18" is arbitrary and reaching that age doesn't correspond to any abrupt maturation in the girl's brain, so why are you asking Muslim women to follow the so-called official view ?

3) That can be relative. Very relative. Let me ask you a question: How do you know if you want to mary a girl who is wearing the Hijab?

By official, I mean the view of many people who believe in religious tolerance and also believe on the principle of laicity (at least those that I know of).
 
What would you thing about me if I had a 7 or 10 year old daughter and I told her that pious women must be dressed like this, or else, she is a slut (whatever that means in our times). Does that make me a narrow minded person or not? It’s as simple as that.
 
- Well ok, Let’s make that 16 if you like. But it has to be her decision. Not the father or mother, not the big brother, not the regional government (as it is currently happening in Indonesia if you are following the news). But her decision. Than, I am with you.
 
It is actually permissible to look at your fiancée and, according to some anecdotes in Sahih Abi Dawood, this includes whatever "features" -for the lack of a better word- in her body that'll make you attracted to her.
 
As I said. I am a Turkish person. I don’t know Arab writer very well. In my culture, Before the declaration of the Republic in 1923, I would probably have sent one of my female relatives to see if the woman I wanted to marry had positive and healthy physical features. That used to be the tradition in the 19th century. And I am not criticizing it. That was the day, that was the practice.
 
In today’s world, I will have to ask you for a quotation from your Salih Abi, or any other writer that you may know on the issue of why a Muslim women deserves the flames of hell if she decides to enjoy the sea and the sun like everybody else in one of the most beautiful beaches of the world?
 
Let this be my most “Official” question to you.
 
I am breaking down the next chapter into several parts:
 
This means that you don't know much about Islam either,
 
You shouldn’t make such commentaries because you don’t know anything about me.
 
 
 
you're just here trying to "school" Muslims that they should follow some official view,
 
I have said in many places that everything I wrote is my own personal view and there is nothing official about it. (I am not from the government, or any government)
 
 the same official view that led to unimaginably high counts of rapes and all kinds of sexual violence, to say nothing of the explosion of the porn industry in the countries that you regard as role models of valuing women.
 
This is not the subject that is being debated in this topic. And you are referring to a very wide subject. But the view that democratic society are decadent or degenerate as you seem to be wanting to imply is simply not true.
Sexual violence is more hidden in closed and repressive societies (like in India for instance) and more visible in open and democratic societies.
When they captures Bin Laden’s laptop, they saw that almost half of the hard disk was full of porn (the same is true for almost all captured AL-Quaida leaders). Because in societies where sexuality is repressed, sexual obsessions and perversions tend to increase. (ask any psychologist).
 
And no: I don’t “school” anyone. I am a translator, not a teacher. I am not even an expert on any subject. I am just chatting here: I am a simple man with simple, personal views. J

[Leonardo17]

In Islamic countries, there are the following problems for women freedom of clothing:
1- In countries like Iran, the government determines the type of clothing for women. Women do not have the right to choose the type of clothes to be in the street.
If they wear other clothes, the police will arrest them and send them to prison or they will be penalized or they will be beaten and killed.

2- Satanic religion, Islam is designed and propagated by Satan in such a way that it creates fear in men that if they accept that it is good to remove the hijab and it is good for wives and  doughters, they will be accused to they are poor-spirited and scoundrel  and will be scandalized. And they are afraid that other Muslim men will start teasing and insulting their daughters, wives and sisters or disrespecting them [!?]

Just want to make sure I understand you correctly, you're agnostic but you believe in Satan?

(troll)