The new atheists and The war on History

[VyckRo]

Obviously we can't. We have no idea how the library was destroyed. It is a mystery. We do know that there was a library. We do know that Christians did not like the melting pot of religion that was Alexandria. We also know that other conflicts could have led to its destruction. Another thing we know, the building may have survived and then been hidden or destroyed by a natural disaster, which destroyed other landmarks of Alexandria.

"We have no idea how the library was destroyed" therefore we assume that they were Christians!
Though here, we speak of the Byzantine empire, that kept all the knowledge of antiques that we do have, in reality all the parents of the eastern church, as
Basil the Great or John Chrysostom were scholars in Greek philosophy.
In this time in the west, the classical culture disappears from most places. But not because Christians wanted to destroy the ancient culture

In ancient Rome all intelligentsia knew Greek, but once with the disappearance of the traditional patrician elite,with the collapse of the West Roman Empire, the Greek knowledge is lost.
In ancient Rome Greek was the language of intellectuals, as French would be later for Russians, and there was no need for translations of classical works from Greek in to Latin, therefore the Greek tests become unusable, from the moment of the disappearance of that intellectual elite that was able to understand them
So at the moment the great schism, for example, the Catholics messengers were not even able to communicate with the patriarch of Constantinople,in Greek..
And that because for centuries for the vast majority of the Westerners, their entire knowledge of the Greek literature originated only from four works:

1) Macrobius' Commentary upon Scipio's Dream
2) On the Marriage of Philology and Mercury by Martianus Felix Capella
3) the translation and comments of Plato's Timaeus from Greek into Latin made by Calcidius
4) Consolation of Philosophy by Boethius

But the Byzantine philosophy, developed quite early the concept that a philosophy can be understood only by itself. Therefore scholars as Michael Psellos and John Italos recommended that the study of Greek philosophy to start only from the original works, and this study to be done, even with the risks, of contradicting the Christian dogma.

In the Byzantine Empire 9th and 10th centuries a work begins of recovery and transcribing old manuscripts, Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos provides a personal support for the salvation of the pagan literature.
Was enough that some literary sources to be classified as "traditionally sources" to be treated with utmost respect, and to be considered above any controversy.
These works became "cultural goods,of the Greek nation" and any criticism of them was regarded as a proof of barbarism.

"Christians did not like the melting pot of religion that was Alexandria"
of course ... that is why all the great eastern theologians and Patriarchs were educated in Alexandria

quod erat demonstrandum

We observe, the following atheist myths:
Christians as destroyers of ancient culture
Christians as destroyers of library in Alexandria


sources for the above
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Byzance by Michel Kaplan
Byzantinisches Erotikon by Hans-Georg.
La philosophie byzantine - Basile N. Tatakis
Theologie Und Philosophie In Byzanz By Gerhard Podskalsky
Aristote au mont Saint-Michel by Sylvain Gouguenheim
Byzantine Theology by john Meyendorff

[Shell B]

"We have no idea how the library was destroyed" therefore we assume that they were Christians!

Don't be idiotic. Not even a single person in this thread, to my knowledge, made any such assertion. You are accusing atheists of saying that something happened. That doesn't make it reality. The bottom line is that no one knows what happened and it very well could have been Christians. It also could have been war or natural disaster, as I have already said. How can you possibly follow up a post where someone blatantly said it was a mystery with "You assume it was Christians!"? Fucking ridiculous.

Though here, we speak of the Byzantine empire, that kept all the knowledge of antiques that we do have, in reality all the parents of the eastern church, as
Basil the Great or John Chrysostom were scholars in Greek philosophy.
In this time in the west, the classical culture disappears from most places. But not because Christians wanted to destroy the ancient culture

Uh, yes they did. It was pagan culture.

but once with the disappearance of the traditional patrician elite,with the collapse of the West Roman Empire, the Greek knowledge is lost.

What in the fuck are you talking about? Greek knowledge is not lost.

In ancient Rome Greek was the language of intellectuals, as French would be later for Russians, and there was no need for translations of classical works from Greek in to Latin, therefore the Greek tests become unusable, from the moment of the disappearance of that intellectual elite that was able to understand them

A. What the fuck does this have to do with your insane claims? B. Greek texts are usable to this day. Whether people outside of Greece could use them is irrelevant. I cannot read Arabic. Does that make Arabic texts useless?

even with the risks, of contradicting the Christian dogma.

Bang! And there you fucking have it. The risks. You mean, like death, torture, life imprisonment? Yeah, those. . .

of course ... that is why all the great eastern theologians and Patriarchs was educated in Alexandria

Might have been because Alexandria had all the fucking books.

We observe, the following atheist myths:
Christians as destroyers of ancient culture
Christians as destroyers of library in Alexandria

One of your biggest mistakes is calling them "atheist" myths. Atheists are not the only ones who disagree with your denialism.

Next, the Christians were destroyers of ancient culture. Do not worry. I don't discriminate there. So were the Muslims, Spanish (South America), British (North America), Chinese (Tibet) and more I am sure.

[VyckRo]

VyckRo Wrote:
I graduated from two universities
1. History
2. Political Science

So what? (appeal to irrelevant authority)

Dude! Read the post, someone asked me, ok!
I find your "appeal to authority" to be nothing more than a sophism, Please remember it, and next time you go to a doctor, and he, recommend you a treatment tell him the story with tha appeal to authority. know Doc I will check whit wiky too...

[5thHorseman]

Many of the people here (including me) have degrees equally or more relevant.

Actually, Padraic and Min are so old they remember this shit first hand!

Oh,tres drole.


I fart in your general direction

my favourite line from monty python.

[Shell B]

Check this out, something on the Library of Alexandria that suggest religious leaders may have been responsible. This article was written by a man I believe is Catholic. Tada! It's not an atheist myth, buddy.

http://historicmysteries.com/ancient-lib...alexandria

[Erinome]

Today I took the liberty of calling my friend Will. He is a Historian and Professor at Vanderbilt University. It was nice catching up with him, as we hadn't had a chat in ages. I read him some of Vyck's posts, and he laughed his ass off.

He said, (and I agree) that this guy doesn't sound like he finished high school, much less college. He sounds more like a loony fucking conspiracy theorist.

I figured that, but it was nice to have a laugh with a real history buff/old friend at his expense.

I know I'm kinda talking about him like he's not here, and that's largely because I don't believe he is, if ya know what I'm sayin'.

[VyckRo]

"We have no idea how the library was destroyed" therefore we assume that they were Christians!

Don't be idiotic. Not even a single person in this thread, to my knowledge, made any such assertion. You are accusing atheists of saying that something happened. That doesn't make it reality. The bottom line is that no one knows what happened and it very well could have been Christians. It also could have been war or natural disaster, as I have already said. How can you possibly follow up a post where someone blatantly said it was a mystery with "You assume it was Christians!"? Fucking ridiculous.

"but once with the disappearance of the traditional patrician elite,with the collapse of the West Roman Empire, the Greek knowledge is lost."

What in the fuck are you talking about? Greek knowledge is not lost.

"In ancient Rome Greek was the language of intellectuals, as French would be later for Russians, and there was no need for translations of classical works from Greek in to Latin, therefore the Greek tests become unusable, from the moment of the disappearance of that intellectual elite that was able to understand them"

A. What the fuck does this have to do with your insane claims? B. Greek texts are usable to this day. Whether people outside of Greece could use them is irrelevant. I cannot read Arabic. Does that make Arabic texts useless?

From my long text, about the survival of the Greek culture you understand what You wanted to understand, not the historical reality.
There is a contradiction between the idea set forth by you, with Christianity as the destroyer of ancient culture.
And the idee set forth by me whit the protection, conservation and cultivation of classical works from the byzantine empire.
I have already explained, how the Greek knowledge whas lost from the west ( and yes, It whas lost for the west, for several hundred years, whit all the barbarian invasions).
I made it very clear how this knowledge has been lost, in the west, but you did not understood anything. Romans have never translated classical Greek works
in Latin, because they were bilingual, and any educated Roman, knew Greek too. With the disappearance of educated romans elites these texts could not be read by anyone the texts were discarded as waste, deleted and used for letters, songs, poems, religious texts (paper was very valuable).
Luckily,at the same time, in the Byzantine Empire theological debates were common, and theologians have quickly borrowed the methods of Greek philosophy .
Not as they were different people, were the same Hellenic philosophers that now had become Christians.
The whole concept of " Ecumenical Councils" see First seven Ecumenical Councils, was in reality a continuation of the Grek agora
Therefore the image presented by you is not authentic, Even if you threw the Inquisition card, which has nothing to do (death, torture, life imprisonment) with the period of disappearance of the classical culture from the west.


Keep in mind the following things:
1. cultures die. A good example is the ancient Egyptian culture that we can understand it, partly because Plutarch and partly du to the Rosetta Stone without these we would know almost nothing.
2. The ancient Greco-Roman culture did not disappeared completely from Europ, and that because of the interest shown by the church in the east and west.
3. Where it has disappeared, temporal, that is in the west it was not intentionally destroyed.
4. Soon as it was possible a work to recover the ancient culture began (see Jacob of Venice)

Conclusion
The idea of a Christianity that wanted to destroy the works of antiquity (but by magic failed) we only find it, in some movies as "The name of the Rose"
The west has struggled nearly 1,000 years to recover its ancient culture, and the east has struggled over1,000 years to preserves their culture.
The idea that any of the two, would have destroyed their own heritage intentionally, may be just a bad joke

One matter of reflection
As time passes over a legend the legend becomes even more spectacular, sometimes these legends become myths and and even religions.
"Cleopatra's beauty", "Lost City of Gold" or "ius primae noctis" are modern myths, may be the story of Hercules or Aphrodite began in the same way.
the library of Alexandria, seems to increase in number of volumes and size with each new account, some say even that was lit by electricity.

---

Today I took the liberty of calling my friend Will. He is a Historian and Professor at Vanderbilt University. It was nice catching up with him, as we hadn't had a chat in ages. I read him some of Vyck's posts, and he laughed his ass off.

Obviously you did!
Unfortunately I always speak, with coverage in sources.
But I have not seen anyone in this post, to mention, one source.
although I mentioned several.

[Shell B]

I did, dipshit. You ignored it.

[Minimalist]

Many of the people here (including me) have degrees equally or more relevant.

Actually, Padraic and Min are so old they remember this shit first hand!

Look, I testified for Bruno. The pervert bastards were so busy fucking children they didn't listen to me.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

I know I'm kinda talking about him like he's not here, and that's largely because I don't believe he is, if ya know what I'm sayin'

Well yes,for all practical purposes he (?) isn't here.


I meant it when I said I can't be bothered with him.)

To be fair,he may indeed have degrees from two universities.They may simply be not very good degrees and/or universities.. Or he may be one of that distressingly large group who are just dandy at passing exams,but leave university without actually having learned anything worth learning.(such as critical thinking)