Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?

[SleepingDemon]

There are half a dozen or so obscure and highly questionable nonbiblical references to Jesus. That's it. There are no roman documents concerning the execution, nothing. For the most important man who ever lived, none of the contemporary historians knew anything about him, in fact, no one mentioned a damn thing about some guy walking around Jerusalem, raising the dead and walking on water for like 40 years after he "died". Your savior never existed. Now, there may have been a carpenters son named Jesus who lived sometime during that time, but if so, his life was so unmemorable that no one thought he was important enough to mention in their journal.

That is, until Constantine made a superhero out of him. Think about it, every aspect from the jesus myth can be traced back to Greek, Egyptian, and other pagan mythologies. The virgin birth, being a demigod, being crucified, gathering a merry band of brothers, the resurrection, the trip to hell. This guy was a carbon copy of at least several other mangods, and with the Christian method of stealing and repackaging pagan holidays, festivals, prayers and rituals, it isn't too far fetched to say that Jesus was a 2nd or 3rd century construct meant to solidify the Roman Empires dominance.

[chi pan]

There are no roman documents concerning the execution, nothing.

you clearly did not watch the video i posted. there's more then half a dozen documents containing his existance. these were written by romans and jews alike and both skeptics and believers alike. watch the video

[Erinome]

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/paul/paul.htm

The person who dreamed up Jesus was Paul of Tarsus. There are no earlier records of his existence. You want it to be true. I understand. It's just not. Sorry.

[chi pan]

The person who dreamed up Jesus was Paul of Tarsus. There are no earlier records of his existence. You want it to be true. I understand. It's just not. Sorry

interesting, your reference claims Jesus existed. " Paul never met Jesus in the flesh, he only claimed some spiritual visions and proceeded to Hellenize the teachings of Jesus (who preached a generic form of Judaism), until he created Pauline Christianity."

plus, you did not watch the video of historical references about Jesus' existance outside the bible.

[chi pan]

I'm posting this encouraging any to refute my claim that Jesus existed. first, i do not accept any arguements saying "your doccuments are faulse" or "they're a forgery." if you want to make a claim, back it up with evidence. second, i do not accept claims quoted from jesusdoesnotexist.com or any other biased site as evidence. any evidence discrediting my sources must be historical, as my sources are historical.

Evidence

1. CORNELIUS TACITUS (55 - 120 A.D.) Tacitus was a 1st and 2nd century Roman historian who lived through the reigns of over half a dozen Roman emperors. Considered one of the greatest historians of ancient Rome, Tacitus verifies the Biblical account of Jesus' execution at the hands of Pontius Pilate who governed Judea from 26-36 A.D. during the reign of Tiberius.

"Christus, the founder of the [Christian] name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius. But the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, by through the city of Rome also." Annals XV, 44

2. GAIUS SUETONIUS TRANQUILLUS (69 - 130 A.D.) Suetonius was a prominent Roman historian who recorded the lives of the Roman Caesars and the historical events surrounding their reigns. He served as a court official under Hadrian and as an annalist for the Imperial House. Suetonius records the expulsion of the Christian Jews from Rome (mentioned in Acts 18:2) and confirms the Christian faith being founded by Christ.

"As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, [Claudius] expelled them from Rome." Life of Claudius 25.4

3. THALLUS (~ 52 A.D.) Although his works exist only in fragments, Julius Africanus debates Thallus' explanation of the midday darkness which occurred during the Passover of Jesus' crucifixion. Thallus tries to dismiss the darkness as a natural occurrence (a solar eclipse) but Africanus argues (and any astronomer can confirm) a solar eclipse cannot physically occur during a full moon due to the alignment of the planets. Phlegon of Tralles, a 2nd century secular historian, also mentions the darkness and tries to dismiss it as a solar eclipse. He also states the event occurred during the time of Tiberius Caesar.

"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness. The rocks were rent by an earthquake and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Savior falls on the day before the passover. But an eclipse of the sun takes place only when the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other time... Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth-manifestly that one of which we speak." Chronography XVIII, 47

4. PLINY THE YOUNGER (63 - 113 A.D) Pliny the Younger admits to torturing and executing Christians who refused to deny Christ. Those who denied the charges were spared and ordered to exalt the Roman gods and curse the name of Christ. Pliny addresses his concerns to Emperor Trajan that too many citizens were being killed for their refusal to deny their faith.

"I asked them directly if they were Christians...those who persisted, I ordered away... Those who denied they were or ever had been Christians...worshiped both your image and the images of the gods and cursed Christ. They used to gather on a stated day before dawn and sing to Christ as if he were a god... All the more I believed it necessary to find out what was the truth from two servant maids, which were called deaconesses, by means of torture. Nothing more did I find than a disgusting, fanatical superstition. Therefore I stopped the examination, and hastened to consult you...on account of the number of people endangered. For many of all ages, all classes, and both sexes already are brought into danger..." Pliny's letter to Emperor Trajan

5. FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS (37 - 100 A.D.) Josephus was a first century pharisee and historian of both priestly and royal ancestry who provided important insight into first-century Judaism. Josephus was born only three years after the crucifixion of Jesus, making him a credible witness to the historicity of Jesus.

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him. For he appeared to them alive again the third day. As the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribes of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day." Antiquities XVIII, 3:2


this is my evidence, now tell me how it's wrong. post some evidence discrediting these accounts or any historical doccuments supporting the notion that Jesus never existed.

[downbeatplumb]

Fuck me are you gona get your arse handed too you.

MIN WHERE ARE YOU.

Have you noticed that not one of the writers were alive during the life of this jesus person.
Even Josephus whose account of jesus is widely accepted to be a later forgery, lived after the time of jesus. Being born at least 4 years after the supposed incidents came to a conclusion.

In The Witnesses to the Historicity of Jesus (1912), Arthur Drews wrote, "In the edition of Origen published by the Benedictines it is said that there was no mention of Jesus at all in Josephus before the time of Eusebius (about 300 A.D., Ecclesiast. Hist., 1, 11). Moreover, in the sixteenth century Vossius had a manuscript of the text of Josephus in which there was not a word about Jesus." He believed this was proof that both this passage and the Testimonium Flavianum were interpolations.

But there is a further problem to your argument.

It is possible, (although not at all proved) that jesus the man existed.

So fucking what.

You'd still have to prove that jesus was god.

You do know that many of the branch davidians still that David Koresh was the lamb of god. Belief is funy like that, people are loathe to let it go despite the evidence to the contrary.

[5thHorseman]

Jesus in the form you think he existed, didn't.

Jesus a normal, like you and I, albeit very duluded human being, possibly/probably did.

[downbeatplumb]

Have you seen the god who wasnt there?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73_IjNPmIEI

[chi pan]

Have you noticed that not one of the writers were alive during the life of this jesus person.

though this is true, they did live at a time that is close to the time in which he lived. the main reason that doctrine during his existance took a little while to appear is b/c they didn't consider it important until his doctrine started to spread. they lived within 100 years of the life of christ, therefore they could easily say he did not exist if they thought so but they did not. if their accounts claiming that he existed were unverified, they would claim so.

Jesus a normal, like you and I, albeit very duluded human being, possibly/probably did.

i'm not trying to prove his divinity in this thread. i have encountered many people on this form that claim Jesus never existed so i made this thread to see if any of those people hold a good arguement as to why. i'm not trying to prove religion in this thread.

[5thHorseman]

Ok, i see.

Therefore, I'm not sure, quite possibly, but no conclusive evidence.