What happened to the witches?

[thesummerqueen]

People here in America use the terms socialist and communist interchangeably because they DON'T know what they actually mean. It's fine if you oppose it as an economic system, but calling people communists simply for not following the Religious Right's definition of how the country should be run is just retarded, bigoted, and asinine, which is what most of those people are. What they don't realize is their own god boy would have opposed the capitalist system.

My whole point in bringing it up was to say that certain quadrants of this country have turned witch-hunting into a practice of finding not people who might consort with the devil and practice black magic but people who would ask you to actually live up to your Christian values and standards and do a little good for other people. Socialist, communist, liberal, etc have all become synonymous in the minds of the ignorant with "anti-American." The same ignorant who some 200+ years ago would have burned witches.

People used to get jealous if their neighbor had a good harvest and they didn't. No one liked the chaotic idea that sometimes you can't control crops, and therefore it's just rotten luck - not in a world that had a personal god. Nor would they want to admit if they were lazy. So you make up in your mind that your neighbor's success was due to the devil, not his perseverance and your bad judgement or luck. This bullshit attitude still exists. You don't want to have to help someone out, so you say that if they're disabled or poor, it's their own fault, or the devil's fault, or even God's punishment on them. It's despicable.

[Blam!]

Agreed, thesummerqueen.
Some of Americans call me anti-USA and communist just because I don't like the idea of Capitalism as an economy. I really don't think the economy is not really necessary need for survival of humanity.

[kılıç_mehmet]

People here in America use the terms socialist and communist interchangeably because they DON'T know what they actually mean. It's fine if you oppose it as an economic system, but calling people communists simply for not following the Religious Right's definition of how the country should be run is just retarded, bigoted, and asinine, which is what most of those people are. What they don't realize is their own god boy would have opposed the capitalist system.

Well, I do not see communism as the sole, polar opposite of capitalism.
In truth, communism symbolizes something.
It's just more than an economic system in my eyes. I believe that it's true for the people who use the term "commie" or "communist" in your country.
For me, it symbolizes the long time of oppression of my brothers under their brutal regime.
For me, it symbolizes the lands long lost.
For me, it symbolizes the destruction of cultures, the confiscation of property, lands, and everything that would wrong a people, because that's precisely what happened in Soviet Russia.
So, really, there is little good I have to say about communism.
But it's dead. There isn't much to be said about it anymore. And I believe that calling someone a communist isn't really much of an insult anymore, if he indeed is a communist, he'd probably take pride in it, if he isn't, he'll either get offended(becuse he too also opposes communism to a degree), or say meh, because he isn't one.

My whole point in bringing it up was to say that certain quadrants of this country have turned witch-hunting into a practice of finding not people who might consort with the devil and practice black magic but people who would ask you to actually live up to your Christian values and standards and do a little good for other people. Socialist, communist, liberal, etc have all become synonymous in the minds of the ignorant with "anti-American." The same ignorant who some 200+ years ago would have burned witches.

And tell me, are they? Do liberals, communists and socialists oppose these so-called christian values, or even secular familial values, customs, and cultural practices?
There has to be a reason why they think that way.
By the way, I have to tell you that maybe not all liberals, but all self-identified communists I've met were staunchly anti-american. Never met an American communist, but I've met a lot both at home, and abroad to state that they were. And well, I can't really blame the ones who are elderly enough to have lived through the cold war, since back then, the Soviet Union(and therefore, communism) was the anti-thesis of America and the NATO, so it's perfectly understandable if they think that communism is actually a synonym for anti-american.
There isn't really much of an ignorance on their part, but I'd say there is some ignorance on your part for that matter.
And for the terms of socialists and liberals...Well, I don't know about "socialists" again, since such an identification alone is generally used by communists, but "social-democrat" and other "social-X" if there are any, are generic political spectrums of today, at least the ones who can hope to have a seat in any parliament.

For liberals, well, liberals advocate...Change? Or progress, as they say it.
For economic policies, well, there we are, again at a crossroad where the context changes. The liberals in America advocate economic policies similar to those advocated by nationalists in Turkey.
The liberals in Turkey on the other hand advocate economic policies that go along with conservative policies in America.
So, it changes.
However, as for social matters, I've always been at odds with liberals, and I don't think that it's going to change anytime soon. I think it's the same with conservatives in America, although we might be on different terms with secularist policies.

People used to get jealous if their neighbor had a good harvest and they didn't. No one liked the chaotic idea that sometimes you can't control crops, and therefore it's just rotten luck - not in a world that had a personal god. Nor would they want to admit if they were lazy. So you make up in your mind that your neighbor's success was due to the devil, not his perseverance and your bad judgement or luck. This bullshit attitude still exists. You don't want to have to help someone out, so you say that if they're disabled or poor, it's their own fault, or the devil's fault, or even God's punishment on them. It's despicable.

I never heard of a story where the success of one's neighbor was blamed on the devil.
Here, it's rather blamed on God.

---

But one thing I can note about liberals and communists is that I've come to the conclusion that liberals, and their ideals are generally towards more pragmatic goals, mostly. Communists, anarchists and the like are, however, mostly romantic. They work towards a goal that isn't in sight yet.
Although, for communists, it was already applied somewhere, but it was proven not to work.

[Ziploc Surprise]

[qoute] was just wondering what triggered this realization that caused this change in belief [/quote]

Answer: Science and social science. It is now common knowledge that a confession given under duress is usually a false confession. Multiply this several times if under torture.

Science gives us reasonable and provable solutions for phenomena therefore we don't have to blame the unknown on magic. Furthermore if the unknown is truly unknown we use the scientific method to come about an answer. As a result of these things it has now become shamefully embarrassing (most of the time) to blame things on supernatural things.

For example: A child has a large head, distended belly and has difficulty sleeping at night. Is this due to witchcraft or are these the common symptoms of starvation and malnutrition?

- Someone has a nasty mole on their face. Was this caused by a demon suckling on that spot or is it just a harmless (though ugly) growth that can be removed.

- Crops fail due to drought. Is this a part of a natural cycle or is it witch craft. What is the historical record of drought in the region?

- Someone dies suddenly. Did a witch put a spell on this person or did this person eat too many cheeseburgers in his lifetime?

BTW the examples I gave were all things that at one time were attributed to witchcraft. Every example except the mole is a belief in Nigeria and parts of Africa. The mole/witch sign was a belief in America and Europe around the 1600's. Ironically Hellen Ukpabio, the Nigerian witch hunter, has a nasty giant mole on her cheek.

[Rokcet Scientist]

When I lived in Africa at one time the sugar started disappearing from the pantry stock at the house at an alarming rate. I strongly suspected the maid was stealing it, but couldn't prove it (this was long before tiny webcams, etc.). So I thought of something: when the maid came back from her weekend off I told her that I had a sangoma (witch doctor} come in over the weekend to exorcise the sugar stealing demon from the pantry. And that the sangoma had said no sugar would ever be nicked again because Tokelosh (a bad-tempered dwarf god) had taken up residence in the pantry. He lived there now.

It worked literally like a charm! Not one gram of sugar ever again went missing after that day!
There was a drawback, though: the maid was so scared of Tokelosh that from that day forward she refused to ever go into the pantry again!

[Rokcet Scientist]

Nationalism in itself does include many allegedly "socialist" tenets and practices.

Hence National-Socialism, a.k.a. Nazi, Mehmet.

[houseofcantor]

I was curios as to what realization did people come to back in the witch hunting days that made them stop believing in witches? I know it had to have been a somewhat slow phase-out but the belief seems like it did end rather abruptly. I tried googling and I just couldn't find anything that discussed it. However, I was actually quite surprised how many people still believe this stuff based on my search results.

I was hoping to find something that will help the modern world wake up and grow up out of their fantasies.

I'm a certified witch, only they call it unspecified psychosis. You do the math.

If there's any science it in, I'll get it out of it; if not, I'm just a living love song. No big deal.

[Nebuloso]

[quote='kılıç_mehmet' pid='232149' dateline='1327616527']
[quote]
I never heard of a story where the success of one's neighbor was blamed on the devil.
Here, it's rather blamed on God.
[/quote]

Men and women in Salem believed that all the misfortunes were attributed to the work of the devil; when things like infant death, crop failures or friction among the congregation occurred, the supernatural was blamed. Because of the unusual size of the outbreak of witchcraft accusations, various aspects of the historical context of this episode have been considered as specific contributing factors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials

It was particularly suspicious if your crops failed and your neighbors succeeded. The conclusion was they must be a witch rather than ergot fungi which is known to infect rye and is suspected to be the culprit of many of the Salem Witch Trials.

[tackattack]

This bullshit attitude still exists. You don't want to have to help someone out, so you say that if they're disabled or poor, it's their own fault, or the devil's fault, or even God's punishment on them. It's despicable.

Or you love and help you neighbor as you'd want to be helped.

[thesummerqueen]

In a perfect world, Tack darling.