Theists are Insecure

[chi pan]

That's not entirely true, christians offer some poor jew up as a sacrifice all day every day in their thoughts and prayers. It's actually seen as a virtue. Words fail me.

That's a catholic belief. I'm reluctant to call them Christian their beliefs are so radical.

---

OK, burnt offering means stay a virgin and Jesus didn't die for our sins, he was just executed. If you say so, Chipan.

He did die for our sins but he was not an offering of men. He was an offering from God to us.

The Catholics are SO Radical, they are not Christians?
Seems they were the only Christians from 300AD (after they killed/abolished the other competing "Christians")
till Martin Luther
nailed his revolt up in the 1500's. Are REAL Christians only 500 years old Chippy?

They changed a lot back then. Th start of the change started conflict between the east and the west. It split the church into catholic and orthodox. This is why Martin Luther write his 95 Theses. Their practices are not biblical.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Minor point, but worth noting. Jesus was arrested by the temple guards and not on any grounds that would allow them to kill him. So they handed him over to the Romans.

[Modular Moog V]

That's not entirely true, christians offer some poor jew up as a sacrifice all day every day in their thoughts and prayers. It's actually seen as a virtue. Words fail me.

That's a catholic belief. I'm reluctant to call them Christian their beliefs are so radical.

---

OK, burnt offering means stay a virgin and Jesus didn't die for our sins, he was just executed. If you say so, Chipan.

He did die for our sins but he was not an offering of men. He was an offering from God to us.

The Catholics are SO Radical, they are not Christians?
Seems they were the only Christians from 300AD (after they killed/abolished the other competing "Christians")
till Martin Luther
nailed his revolt up in the 1500's. Are REAL Christians only 500 years old Chippy?

They changed a lot back then. Th start of the change started conflict between the east and the west. It split the church into catholic and orthodox. This is why Martin Luther write his 95 Theses. Their practices are not biblical.

And your practices are Biblical? How could they be so deceived?
Are you claiming there were no biblical Christians until the protestant revolution?
1300 years of no real Christians? From 300ad till approx 1500ad?
Really?

[Neo-Scholastic]

Pendragon, I'm not defending chipan, but your line of questioning is misplaced. Churches grow corrupt over time. That was the state of the church universal when Luther came on board. Luther was a correcting influence. It's sorta like the US Constitution. It starts out pretty clear. But then people start adding interpretations on top of interpretations and the original document gets lost. Nothing is wrong with trying to rediscover the essentials of one's belief. If more people did that they might discover how much they rely on other people in authority telling them what to think.

[Whateverist]

Not exactly, whateverist. Placing yourself at the mercy of someone else is not the same as throwing yourself on a grenade. In the case of the grenade the enemy soldier has already committed the act of violence. In contrast, the injustice done to Jesus was performed after his surrender.

True enough but if Jesus is God and God knew what he was getting himself into (the whole omniscience thing), then in a sense the violence done to Jesus was no more than that done to someone who pretends to have a gun when told to put up their hands by the police. Really both are suicides.

In comparison with the grenade jumper, Jesus/God is more culpable for the violence done to him since he set the whole thing up. He is more like the person who gets a cop to kill him. God exploited the Jews and Romans to achieve His end. (Or at least that's what it would be if any of this story were factual.)

[Modular Moog V]

Pendragon, I'm not defending chipan, but your line of questioning is misplaced. Churches grow corrupt over time. That was the state of the church universal when Luther came on board. Luther was a correcting influence. It's sorta like the US Constitution. It starts out pretty clear. But then people start adding interpretations on top of interpretations and the original document gets lost. Nothing is wrong with trying to rediscover the essentials of one's belief. If more people did that they might discover how much they rely on other people in authority telling them what to think.

The original church was corruption. Lies, and myth were the first Catholic Church. Before them were scattered groups. Many were destroyed by the Church. If the the first Church is nothing but an accumulation of lies, why should we be surprised about corruption a thousand years later?

Why should we believe any of it now? All poison from the root.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Prove your claim that the church was corrupt from its inception.

[The Grand Nudger]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Criticising the many interpretations of the bible, and then holding up yet another interpretation (Luthers) as anything other than just another interpretation in that long line is intellectual dishonesty at the very least. That's the generous way to put it. I, for one, don't care which interpretation you prefer, they are all equally worthless.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Whateverist, suppose a human rights activist chooses to non-violently defy a repressive regime. To do so the activist places himself in a situation in which the regime could either recognize the plea of the activist or oppress him. If the regime chooses oppression the activist has exposed the injustice and tyranny of what it is. If the regime chooses to recognize his plea, then reform takes a step forward. Either way, the human rights activist achieves some measure of progress (exposure of the wrong or reform) toward his goal of a more just society.

My point is that the cruxifiction image shown above should not be used as an example of human sacrifice or suicide. As a Christian I see a horrible injustice, the humiliation torture and murder of everything that is good and true. It is a reminder not only of something that happened in the past, but what happens everyday when bow to power instead of doing what we believe is right.

[The Grand Nudger]

You're prepared to demonstrate that it actually occurred, that it was "something that happened in the past"? It is a human sacrifice only because many christians demand that it is so. I say its a fairy tale about human sacrifice, and no such sacrifice was made. Jesus-as-human rights activist. Give me a break. When's the last time you heard a human rights activist advocating for thought crimes, or damnation? How about my human rights to opt out of oppression by a tyrannical dictator? Our human rights to seek redress for the unbelievable abuses visited upon us by the very same...so the story would have us believe?