Science + Creation

[Godscreated]

The long age big-bang idea has a problem of it's own with light-travel-time. Seems there are points in the distant universe which are today all the same temperature, yet they are so far apart that there has not been anywhere near enough time for energy travelling at the speed of light to cross that distance to equilibrate the temperature. Even with the billions of years the big-bang model shows, the big-bang model needs billions of more years than that. :Carl Wieland
So if the speed of light which is the speed limit of the universe is a problem with the big-bang, why do you allow for the big-bang and yet dismiss creation for the same reason.

You have absolutely no fucking idea what you're talking about, do you...

Imagine two kettles on opposite sides of the Earth. When they reach 100 deg they are going to be at the same temperature and they don't need to be in communication with each other to do that.

Do try to learn some real science instead of spouting the inane drivel that the cretinists vomit up.

You are trying to push the facts aside with your own drivel, typical of those who do not like there little notions attacked.

[Epimethean]

Sources, GC. Send 'em and we'll evaluate what you are trying to say.

[Anomalocaris]

You have absolutely no fucking idea what you're talking about, do you...

Imagine two kettles on opposite sides of the Earth. When they reach 100 deg they are going to be at the same temperature and they don't need to be in communication with each other to do that.

Do try to learn some real science instead of spouting the inane drivel that the cretinists vomit up.

Actually, he appears to have some idea of what he is talking about. But his limited idea seems to be a reharsh of some talking points presented in some creationist bullshit, and he personally is either too ignorant to follow in real scientific journals where the science has led since the problem was stated; or too dishonest to memtion the massive amount of data science has geathered that contradicts biblical cosmology, while harping on the tiny amount that seems to his blurred vision to be susceptible to such contortions as required to give his biblical account a few inches of wiggle room in which to to eek out another round.

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Doesn't the big bang theory itself postulate that space expanded at greater than light speed for a fleeting moment before settling down.

Original Big bang theory didn't. An enhanced model called inflation theory does.

Speed of light is in relation to space itself, and is a constant value C in a absolute vacumn. Rate of expansion of space itself is however not fundamentally constrained by any principle we know of.

So yes, space can expand at any arbitrary rate, but even while space expands at many times speed of light, light within space still travels at speed of light in relation to space itself.

[Epimethean]

The flat universe problem.

[Anomalocaris]

Yes. Not a problem if one does not try to impose some Newtonian sensibilities upon a relativistic universe.

[Godscreated]

Sources, GC. Send 'em and we'll evaluate what you are trying to say.

I gave a source, go read.

[Zen Badger]

You have absolutely no fucking idea what you're talking about, do you...

Imagine two kettles on opposite sides of the Earth. When they reach 100 deg they are going to be at the same temperature and they don't need to be in communication with each other to do that.

Do try to learn some real science instead of spouting the inane drivel that the cretinists vomit up.

You are trying to push the facts aside with your own drivel, typical of those who do not like there little notions attacked.

So why would it be a problem for the BBT?

And why does there have to be a communication between distant parts of the universe in order for them to be at the same temperature?

[Angrboda]

The long age big-bang idea has a problem of it's own with light-travel-time. Seems there are points in the distant universe which are today all the same temperature, yet they are so far apart that there has not been anywhere near enough time for energy travelling at the speed of light to cross that distance to equilibrate the temperature. Even with the billions of years the big-bang model shows, the big-bang model needs billions of more years than that. :Carl Wieland
So if the speed of light which is the speed limit of the universe is a problem with the big-bang, why do you allow for the big-bang and yet dismiss creation for the same reason.

He's referring to this article at Creation Ministries International, and specifically the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMB) as clarified in the article referenced in .

The problem

The temperature of the CMB is essentially the same everywhere — in all directions (to a precision of 1 part in 100,000). However (according to big bang theorists), in the early universe, the temperature of the CMB would have been very different at different places in space due to the random nature of the initial conditions. These different regions could come to the same temperature if they were in close contact. More distant regions would come to equilibrium by exchanging radiation (i.e. light). The radiation would carry energy from warmer regions to cooler ones until they had the same temperature.

Typical of CMI, and GC by vomiting up arguments he clearly doesn't understand, and pretending that he does (bear false witness, anybody?), the science is stupendously wrong.

The cosmic microwave background (CMB) radiation is an emission of uniform, black body thermal energy coming from all parts of the sky. The radiation is isotropic to roughly one part in 100,000: the root mean square variations are only 18 µK, after subtracting out a dipole anisotropy from the Doppler shift of the background radiation. The latter is caused by the peculiar velocity of the Earth relative to the comoving cosmic rest frame as the planet moves at some 371 km/s towards the constellation Leo.

In the Big Bang model for the formation of the universe, Inflationary Cosmology predicts that after about 10−37 seconds the nascent universe underwent exponential growth that smoothed out nearly all inhomogeneities. The remaining inhomogeneities were caused by quantum fluctuations in the inflaton field that caused the inflation event. After 10−6 seconds, the early universe was made up of a hot, interacting plasma of photons, electrons, and baryons. As the universe expanded, adiabatic cooling caused the plasma to lose energy until it became favorable for electrons to combine with protons, forming hydrogen atoms. This recombination event happened when the temperature was around 3000 K or when the universe was approximately 379,000 years old. At this point, the photons no longer interacted with the now electrically neutral atoms and began to travel freely through space, resulting in the decoupling of matter and radiation.

The color temperature of the decoupled photons has continued to diminish ever since; now down to 2.72548 ± 0.00057 K, their temperature will continue to drop as the universe expands. According to the Big Bang model, the radiation from the sky we measure today comes from a spherical surface called the surface of last scattering. This represents the set of locations in space at which the decoupling event is estimated to have occurred and at a point in time such that the photons from that distance have just reached observers. Most of the radiation energy in the universe is in the cosmic microwave background, making up a fraction of roughly 6×10−5 of the total density of the universe.

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The "temperature" of the CMB is not what it is because of conduction of heat from different parts. The apparent temperature of the CMB is a result of the light from the CMB being massively red shifted, by processes and conditions which are no longer present, and ordinary physics. At the time the photons we're receiving from the CMB were emitted, they were at the edge of the tiny universe; being at the edge of the expansion of the universe, they were (and are) traveling away from us (or was traveling) at such an enormous rate that the radiation we are receiving is red-shifted from 3000 K (~5000° F) to the equivalent of that we would receive from a body that isn't moving in relation to us and is only a few degrees above absolute zero.

As is typical of creationists, they argue against strawmen and ignore what science tells us about the phenomena to give the impression that there is no explanation consistent with science. The CMB is not completely isotropic, as CMI claims, nor was its degree of anisotropy a result of the conduction via photons and classic convection. Moreover, the CMI (and GC by implication) are effectively lying to people who have no understanding of the physics of the early universe, by failing to tell them the abnormal conditions operating at the time in question, when the universe was a tiny, 3000 K plasma ball, and in which the basic forces of the universe were still sorting themselves out. By not warning their readers, they are effectively lying to them.

Here is a map of the CMB which Creation Ministries claims "are today all the same temperature"

[Thor]

By not warning their readers, they are effectively lying to them.

Golly, gee! You mean that Creationist organizations will misrepresent science?

Well, butter my ass and call me a biscuit! Who'd a thunk?

[Tempus]