The Stage is Yours.

[fr0d0]

my brain finds more connections than yours. Oh well.

No my brain haz MOAR!!!

I don't know how to explain it any more clearly, though.

Yeah I know your POV my only interest is understanding it. I guess maybe that means believing it too, and that I can't expect to understand it that well.

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1. Firstly, in what sense are you using the word "evil'? Are you talking about evil in the moral sense or evil as in things like natural disasters/diseases/calamities?

moral. I don't see those other things as evil.

2. Of course I believe that Allah can destroy, but that doesn't mean that Allah himself is evil. The Christian god also destroys, but does that necessarily make Him evil?

No indeed. I think the quote is that allah is unjustifiably angry - taken from the 99 attribues.

3. In this post (sorry, you got search ninja'd again), you admitted that God indirectly created evil. So, whether directly or indirectly, He did create evil - Satan and Hell, for example.

Kudos

Indirectly as in... isn't evil himself. As in... every positive creation brings about an opposing force. Light being the positive force, dark is the neutral state that it reverts to.

Satan naturally exists as a counter to good. Evil from good. Etc.

4. The following are verses from the Bible that support that God is the source of both good and evil and that he also destroys according to his will:

As you asked above, killing and destruction are not necessarily evil. Ultimate justice is only possible via complete knowledge, and here we credit God with that ability.

5. Coming back to Islam, I would like to know exactly what parts of your so remarkable study of Islam led you to conclude that Allah does evil while your God only does good. This is not to say that I think that the Christian God is evil either because I consider Him to be the same God as Allah minus all the Trinity stuff that were probably added later on by certain authors (as supported by Bart Ehrman's extensive research of the Bible). Furthermore, I believe that all the Abrahamic religions trace back to the same origin and the same God.

"So remarkable" ooh *grabs handbag*

Yeah I'm on the fence about Islam addressing the same God. I think Mohammed's revelation was too far from what Judaism and Christianity profess. Undeniable that Islam is based upon Xtianity, yes.

The trinity stuff seems irrelevant to me. It's what can be clearly derived from the text as it stands.

6. <snip> tell me which of them you find to be inconsistent and/or contradictory.

I'll look that up later for you and post back.

utes. But we cannot comprehend his primary attribute as the Quran says, "No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision. He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things" (6:103).

Yes I think this has a corresponding biblical text.

Secondly, someone having bipolar qualities does not have to mean that those qualities contradict each other. For example, sometimes I can get angry and/or punish someone depending on the situation, and at other times, I can also be loving and merciful. However, these bipolar qualities that I and everyone else possess within ourselves does not mean that they are contradictory nor does it mean that we are inherently evil. This is how I think of Allah's attributes as well.

Jesus was angry, but he wasn't sinful in that anger, as anger can be good. The answer to this will be included in the one for the question above.

Speaking of bipolar, you believe that God is one and many at the same time as said in your post above and, obviously, you don't see anything wrong with that one, eh?

And how is that bipolar?

I'm going to tell you something very confidential right now, so I hope you're wearing your cast iron underpants. I'm not perfect. Wow I feel better for getting that off my chest!

[Taqiyya Mockingbird]

Killing =/= evil. Murder = evil. What we know about God is that he is a just God. Justice would not be justice without punishment.

Did the children and babies of, what Canaan ( pick any of its victims of mass genocide , really) commit murder?

[fr0d0]

Killing =/= evil. Murder = evil. What we know about God is that he is a just God. Justice would not be justice without punishment.

Did the children and babies of, what Canaan ( pick any of its victims of mass genocide , really) commit murder?

I have no idea taq. Did the fly that landed on the wall outside buckingham palace on june 9 think: mmm, popcorn?

[The Grand Nudger]

Wouldn't it be simpler (and a whole hell of alot less slimy) Frods my love, if you simply conceded that in these conquest narratives god is being invoked as pretense (regardless of whether or not the narratives are factually accurate to begin with)? When people wave their god around like it was their dick the temptation to godwillsit™ is probably too much to deny. Of course their god willed their expansions and conquests, regardless of whether or not their god actually did (and regardless of whether or not it exists)...

[Rayaan]

moral. I don't see those other things as evil.

So then what are some of the moral evils that you find in Allah since you said that "Allah has the ability to do evil"?

No indeed. I think the quote is that allah is unjustifiably angry - taken from the 99 attribues.

What quote are you talking about? Your own quote?
Also, again, you still haven't explained to me nor specified which of his attributes imply that he is "unjustifiably" angry.

Indirectly as in... isn't evil himself. As in... every positive creation brings about an opposing force.

So, you're saying that when God created something good/positive, an opposing (evil) force automatically came into existence? That God didn't even intend that to happen?

Light being the positive force, dark is the neutral state that it reverts to.

But light is a physical concept and it's only "positive" in a physical sense.

And since you tried to make an analogy there:
If darkness is a neutral state which light reverts to, then would you say that evil is also the "neutral state" which the good reverts to, or is it the opposite state?

Satan naturally exists as a counter to good. Evil from good. Etc.

"Satan naturally exists" <- So does that mean that Satan wasn't created? He naturally existed like that for eternity? And if the answer is no, then who created Him?

As you asked above, killing and destruction are not necessarily evil. Ultimate justice is only possible via complete knowledge, and here we credit God with that ability.

I can't say that I disagree with that.

Yeah I'm on the fence about Islam addressing the same God. I think Mohammed's revelation was too far from what Judaism and Christianity profess.

Any particular reason why you think that?

Undeniable that Islam is based upon Xtianity, yes.

You just said that Islam is too far from what Judaism and Christianity profess, but now, you said that Islam is undeniably based upon Christianity. Yeah, contradiction.

The trinity stuff seems irrelevant to me. It's what can be clearly derived from the text as it stands.

And there is a debate as to whether or not the Trinity related verses in the Bible were the original words of God considering how much textual alterations there are in the Bible.

There was even a Christian member in this forum, Alter2Ego, who posted why the concept of Trinity may not be a Christian teaching.
http://atheistforums.org/thread-12994.html

I'll look that up later for you and post back.

Take your time, but you can say give up if you can't do it. Then I won't instigate you for that.

Yes I think this has a corresponding biblical text.

And what is your point?

Jesus was angry, but he wasn't sinful in that anger, as anger can be good. The answer to this will be included in the one for the question above.

So, when Jesus (or the Christian God) gets angry, the anger is good and not sinful. But, when Allah gets angry, He is "unjustifiably angry" <- (in your own words).

= Double Standards

And how is that bipolar?

By your statement that God can be "one and three" at the same time. And that Jesus was 100% man and 100% God at the same time.

I'm going to tell you something very confidential right now, so I hope you're wearing your cast iron underpants.

*wears cast iron underpants*

I'm not perfect. Wow I feel better for getting that off my chest!

Damn it!
I thought you were perfect, fr0d0. I really did.

[Taqiyya Mockingbird]

Did the children and babies of, what Canaan ( pick any of its victims of mass genocide , really) commit murder?

I have no idea taq. Did the fly that landed on the wall outside buckingham palace on june 9 think: mmm, popcorn?

In other words, frodo again runs away.

[fr0d0]

5. Coming back to Islam, I would like to know exactly what parts of your study of Islam led you to conclude that Allah does evil.

6. In relation to the above, I'm also curious to know what is it exactly about Allah and/or which of His attributes that you find contradictory.

Ok from this I am taking it that the Quran teaches that Allah is the author of evil:

The Quran calls Allah scheming (makr). S. 3:54; cf. 8:30 That is: deceptive

Verily, the hypocrites seek to deceive Allah, but it is He Who deceives them. And when they stand up for As-Salat (the prayer), they stand with laziness and to be seen of men, and they do not remember Allah but little. S. 4:142 Hilali-Khan

And (the unbelievers) schemed and planned, and Allah schemed also, and the best of schemers is Allah. S. 3:54

Are they then secure from Allah's scheme (makra Allahi)? None deemeth himself secure from Allah's scheme (makra Allahi) save folk that perish. S. 7:99

Remember how the unbelievers schemed against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or to slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They scheme and plot, but the best of schemers is Allah. S. 8:30

And when We make people taste of mercy after an affliction touches them, lo! they devise schemes (makrun) against Our communication. Say: Allah is quicker to scheme (makran); surely Our apostles write down what you plan. S. 10:21

And those before them did indeed scheme (makara), but all scheming (al-makru) is Allah's; He knows what every soul earns, and the unbelievers shall come to know for whom is the (better) issue of the abode. S. 13:42

So they schemed a scheme: and We schemed a scheme, while they perceived not. S. 27:50

This perspective on the Quran is endorsed by Muslim theologians. It isn't possible to attribute the Christian God as deceptive.

There may be more. Stay tuned.

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In other words, frodo again runs away.

Don't you find that the colour blue of the sky is really beautiful?

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Indirectly as in... isn't evil himself. As in... every positive creation brings about an opposing force.

So, you're saying that when God created something good/positive, an opposing (evil) force automatically came into existence? That God didn't even intend that to happen?

God knew it would happen and it is part of his wider plan. He didn't create it (evil), he allowed for it (all knowingly).

Light being the positive force, dark is the neutral state that it reverts to.

But light is a physical concept and it's only "positive" in a physical sense.

Analogies don't have to be perfect.

And since you tried to make an analogy there:
If darkness is a neutral state which light reverts to, then would you say that evil is also the "neutral state" which the good reverts to, or is it the opposite state?

I think it's debateable. I would mean more a 'nothing' state. To revert 'something' to nothing would be the destructive force. Interesting line of thought though.

Satan naturally exists as a counter to good. Evil from good. Etc.

"Satan naturally exists" <- So does that mean that Satan wasn't created? He naturally existed like that for eternity? And if the answer is no, then who created Him?

I think you took that too far. By 'satan' I meant to encompass evil, personified, as satan is widely viewed. Wasn't satan created an angel, but fell? (sorry it's not a subject I have much interest in). Like all creatures, <-- they exist with a choice on how to be. Nature may dictate a hard path, and they might fall to the dark side. Gotta be so much better for that person to choose good.

Undeniable that Islam is based upon Xtianity, yes.

You just said that Islam is too far from what Judaism and Christianity profess, but now, you said that Islam is undeniably based upon Christianity. Yeah, contradiction.

Jahovas Witnesses, Mormonism, Christian Science, and no doubt many more faiths are based upon Xtianity but are very far from Judaism/ or the definition of the the Christian/ Judaic God. Based upon =/= the same. No contradiction.

The trinity stuff seems irrelevant to me. It's what can be clearly derived from the text as it stands.

And there is a debate as to whether or not the Trinity related verses in the Bible were the original words of God considering how much textual alterations there are in the Bible.

The bible is God inspired, not God written, in Xtianity. We strive to understand the exact meaning and re-work translation to that end. We don't claim perfection, we allow for improvement, although there's been little movement for 2000 years. Nothing better has turend up.

Yes I think this has a corresponding biblical text.

And what is your point?

Just pointing it out if you weren't aware. You posted it so it seemed apparent that you weren't. Otherwise why post something you knew I already knew?

Jesus was angry, but he wasn't sinful in that anger, as anger can be good. The answer to this will be included in the one for the question above.

So, when Jesus (or the Christian God) gets angry, the anger is good and not sinful. But, when Allah gets angry, He is "unjustifiably angry" <- (in your own words).

= Double Standards

I posited the potential flaw, unsupported. We're talking about the standard to meet, and the example of a good standard. No slight on Allah intended.

And how is that bipolar?

By your statement that God can be "one and three" at the same time. And that Jesus was 100% man and 100% God at the same time.

That explains nothing to me. Sorry if I missed it.

[Simon Moon]

fr0d0 and Rayaan, dueling cultists both debating whose Iron Age mythology is...what? More logical? Takes more or less faith to believe? The attributes of the god they believe exists?

What a useless discussion.

I couldn't care less what the outcome is.

[Whateverist]

I would be interested to learn what the Christian God has over the Muslim Allah or vicer versa, aren't they equal in terms of implausability?
For that matter what do either have over the other countless religions that populate the world?
Can you disprove them?

Damn, this is such a good question. Who would win in a fair fight? Maybe it would be some other god altogether like Kali, fighting out of India with the Hindu club. Gods associated with a particular weapon, like a hammer or a lightening bolt would get to use them but otherwise no weapons. Oh, and no help from their supporters. It wouldn't be fair for Allah to declare jehad when Jehovah had him in submission hold.

You know if they asked more questions like this theology would be a much more popular course.

[Once again I am late to the party. I'm through the first page so far. Oh please let all the questions be as good as this one. Oh, you glorious bastard.]

[Mystic]

I've noticed that there's been quite a flux of new theist members in the past few days. I personally think that's awesome for this forum. I've also noticed that the thread about trying to prove God doesn't exist has become quite the battle field. So I thought I would make this thread and ask my question:

What are your arguments in favour of God? I mean, it's of no use to say that atheists can't disprove God. However true it might be, it doesn't then follow that God necessarily exists. So I would very much like to see you guys collectively give arguments to back up the claim.

The stage is yours!

1. Morality to be objective, cannot be arbitrary.
2. Objective morality exists (assumption).
3. If a Creator can decide/create what is moral, then morality would be arbitrary. (For example, if it can decide rape is moral, then it would be arbitrary)
4. Therefore a Creator cannot create objective morality.
5. If a Creator cannot create objective morality, then nothing can, including evolution, as a Creator can create evolution, and anything that would be able to create morality.
6. Therefore objective morality is eternal.
7. Morality is not separate from consciousness.
8. Therefore consciousness is eternal.
9. Ultimate morality is included in definition of objective morality.
10. Therefore Ultimate morality exists eternally.

You can substitute "objective greatness" for "objective morality" and you will reach conclusion of "Ultimate greatness".

This is my best argument.