Jesus and Paganism

[Marnie]

So, instead of raising the dead, he gave some guy the Heimlich? Exaggeration is one thing...lol, boldfaced bullshit is another. Go ahead and stretch it a little, but don't break it......

I just noticed I said "As in Jesus existing as a person and the miraculous claims of miracles and his Resurrection are exaggerated." Whoops. That was a really awful choice of words.

Obviously I don't think he performed miracles or rose from the dead. I think the basis for the Gospels comes from a Jewish preacher starting a small Jewish sect. Eventually sayings, miracles, and divine claims are tacked on and he vaguely became the inspiration for the Jesus of the Gospels.

[The Grand Nudger]

Then maybe you're talking about a guy named Jeremy or Bob, but certainly not any Jesus.

[Marnie]

Then maybe you're talking about a guy named Jeremy or Bob, but certainly not any Jesus.

May I ask what your beliefs on Jesus are? Could you give me any links about the Christ myth and credible, non-fanatical scholars who believe in the Christ-myth theory?

[The Grand Nudger]

Sure, for the purposes of my "beliefs" on Jesus and the Christ-Myth I'm as much a scholar as you'll require. I don't believe in the jesus character as anything more than a myth, because to be this character you would have to perform mythical acts a-plenty (and honestly, you have to look pretty hard to find anything at all about this character that isn't squarely mythical -there are no "Jesus takes a shit and gets dingleberries on his robe" narratives -are there). Whether or not we're discussing a jewish preacher that had stories spun about him when we discuss a "historical jesus" is, to me, entirely ridiculous, the character becomes the historical bob.

As Min pointed out through Mencken and others have also pointed out over time on these boards and elsewhere, what jesus is there beyond miracles? I think DP, Min, and I believe we had another that was seriously interested in the christ-myth theory would have better links for you than I could dredge up.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

The muslims make a lot of absurd claims about mohammad but they don't claim he came back from the dead

True enough,but I think his flying horse is a bit hard to swallow.

Mohammed's alleged overnight trip covered the 766 miles from Mecca to Jerusalem, a trip to heaven, and a return to Mecca, and is described in part as follows:

Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0309:
It is narrated on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I was brought al-Buraq Who is an animal white and long, larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule, who would place his hoof a distance equal to the range of vision. I mounted it and came to the Temple (Bait Maqdis in Jerusalem), then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets. I entered the mosque and prayed two rak'ahs in it, and then came out and Gabriel brought me a vessel of wine and a vessel of milk.

So Mohammed flew on al-Buraq to the temple in Jerusalem, tied it up to a ring "the prophets" had used, and went on in to the Temple to pray. Because of the fantastic nature of Mohammed's claims, some 21st century Muslims try to suggest that this was a vision or dream, but according to perhaps the most highly regarded historian of Islam:

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 228:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The sights which Allah's Apostle was shown on the Night Journey when he was taken to Bait-ul-Maqdis (i.e. Jerusalem) were actual sights, (not dreams). And the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Quran is the tree of Zaqqum (itself).

http://brotherpete.com/mohammeds_night_journey.htm

[The Grand Nudger]

Well, there's a back-story on the midnight ride......to make a long one short, it's political manouvering centuries after the "fact". Not the narrative mind you, thats just fantasy, but the place itself is the scene of some serious multi-generation finagling. Amusingly, the best part of the story isn't the story itself, but what creative individuals did with the story.

[Minimalist]

True enough,but I think his flying horse is a bit hard to swallow.

Pegasus was an old tale when Hesiod began discussing it in the 8th century BC. The Greeks brought their culture throughout West Asia when Alexander took his little field trip.

Could you give me any links about the Christ myth and credible, non-fanatical scholars who believe in the Christ-myth theory?

Oh there are plenty of links....this one, http://www.jesusneverexisted.com will keep you busy for years it you like. But, the jesus freaks have a neat little trick. ANYONE who questions their bullshit is, by definition, a fanatic and therefore not credible. So, it is amusing when you see a guy like Bart Ehrman stumble around trying to explain exactly what he means by an "historical jesus." It ends up pretty much like your own...some guy with a minor following who a lot of horseshit stories sprung up about.

The thing is, it is the stories that the xtians venerate. They aren't too big on this "help the poor," "turn the other cheek," or "blessed be the peacemakers" shit. Without miracles, "jesus" is just another shlepper who may or may not have gotten himself killed.

And it is at this point that the Great Xtian Paradox comes into play. On the one hand they insist that their boy had "multitudes" of followers and was so fucking dangerous that the Jewish high priests had to break every rule in their own book to hold a trial on Passover because they couldn't wait ONE MORE DAY. While, at the same time, ole jesus was so insignificant that no Greco-Roman or Jewish writer ever heard of him for a century. They need to make up their minds.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Pegasus was an old tale when Hesiod began discussing it in the 8th century BC. The Greeks brought their culture throughout West Asia when Alexander took his little field trip.

Indeed,and it was bullshit then too.

[Minimalist]

Pegasus was an old tale when Hesiod began discussing it in the 8th century BC. The Greeks brought their culture throughout West Asia when Alexander took his little field trip.

Indeed,and it was bullshit then too.

That goes without saying..... I mean, bad enough when birds shit on you. Can you imagine a flying horse?

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Can you imagine a flying horse?

Not really,but---

The elephant is an amazing bird;

It flits from bough to bough.

It makes its nest in rhubarb trees,

and whistles like a cow.

(anon;nonsense nursery poem)