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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 4:58 pm
(September 3, 2012 at 4:47 pm)Haydn Wrote: So could we then , create a computer powerful enough to share this illusion with us , or perhaps it has already happened but we just don't know it yet?
I most definitely believe that it likely a future computer will acquire a conscious level of existence.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 4:58 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 5:00 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
@ idunno
Then you could not have chosen A or B. Even between two simple possibilities, you are incapable of choosing. You can only "choose "A or A, or B or B - depending on what was foreseen.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 5:08 pm
(September 3, 2012 at 4:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: @idunno
Then you could not have chosen A or B. Even between two simple possibilities, you are incapable of choosing. You can only "choose "A or A, or B or B - depending on what was foreseen.
You can only choose what you choose, you can't choose otherwise. If you choose A, you're stuck with A. If B, then B. Both Options are on the table, but you can only actually choose one (with or without God). Whatever option you choose, you can't choose the other. This is the case even with God outta the picture. So having chose your choice, God knows the choice you pick.
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 5:09 pm
(September 3, 2012 at 4:58 pm)IATIA Wrote: [I most definitely believe that it likely a future computer will acquire a conscious level of existence.
Me too... if we can find out how and why , that should answer some questions . Perhaps the computer could tell us 
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 5:09 pm
(September 3, 2012 at 4:42 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Could you have chosen the opposite of what he knew in advance?
(September 3, 2012 at 4:57 pm)idunno Wrote: Nope. Why is this problematic in light of the doctoral dissertation that is this thread? :p
response to Rythm
One of the arguments against my 'knowing' that idunno will not intentionally drive into oncoming traffic is that I am guessing.
If I do not know everything, then that is true, albeit an 'educated guess'.
If I know everything, then we are back to 'Laplace's demon', which again, negates free will. If not, then this 'all-knowing' god is only 'guessing'.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 5:13 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 5:15 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(September 3, 2012 at 5:08 pm)idunno Wrote: You can only choose what you choose, you can't choose otherwise. If you choose A, you're stuck with A. If B, then B. Both Options are on the table, but you can only actually choose one (with or without God). Whatever option you choose, you can't choose the other. None of which addresses what I just posted to you, at all. I just asked you if you could make a choice and you told me no, but now you say that I can?
Quote: This is the case even with God outta the picture. So having chose your choice, God knows the choice you pick.
I thought he knew it before I chose it, you mean god has to wait until I make choices to know the outcome? Well fuck idunno -I can do that, this guy is sounding less like a superhero and more like my completely average uncle all of a sudden....So, not omniscient?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 5:15 pm
AITIA, give me a chance to look up this demon of which your speak. Is strictly a deterministic system? Are you affirming that the only way God could know the future is by knowing every cause that preceded an effect?
That leaves you in the position of substantiating that determinism is true, and that the only way God can know the future is if it is in fact entirely deterministic.
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 5:16 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 5:16 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Wouldn't matter -how- knowledge of the future is gained, so long as knowledge of the future -can be- gained, no free will.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 5:20 pm
(September 3, 2012 at 5:13 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (September 3, 2012 at 5:08 pm)idunno Wrote: You can only choose what you choose, you can't choose otherwise. If you choose A, you're stuck with A. If B, then B. Both Options are on the table, but you can only actually choose one (with or without God). Whatever option you choose, you can't choose the other. None of which addresses what I just posted to you, at all. I just asked you if you could make a choice and you told me no, but now you say that I can?
Quote: This is the case even with God outta the picture. So having chose your choice, God knows the choice you pick.
I thought he knew it before I chose it, you mean god has to wait until I make choices to know the outcome? Well fuck idunno -I can do that, this guy is sounding less like a superhero and more like my completely average uncle all of a sudden....So, not omniscient?
Haha, I've never argued that you can't make a choice, if that's what you've taken from what I've said you've misunderstood me. My whole point is that a choice does not necessitate alternative options.
I suppose implicit in all of this is the distinction between chronological and logical priority. God's foreknowledge is chronologically prior, but my choice is logically prior. His foreknowing doesn't make my choice for me, I do.
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 5:22 pm
(September 3, 2012 at 5:20 pm)idunno Wrote: (September 3, 2012 at 5:13 pm)Rhythm Wrote: None of which addresses what I just posted to you, at all. I just asked you if you could make a choice and you told me no, but now you say that I can?
I thought he knew it before I chose it, you mean god has to wait until I make choices to know the outcome? Well fuck idunno -I can do that, this guy is sounding less like a superhero and more like my completely average uncle all of a sudden....So, not omniscient?
Haha, I've never argued that you can't make a choice, if that's what you've taken from what I've said you've misunderstood me. My whole point is that a choice does not necessitate alternative options.
I suppose implicit in all of this is the distinction between chronological and logical priority. God's foreknowledge is chronologically prior, but my choice is logically prior. His foreknowing doesn't make my choice for me, I do.
A choice does necessitate alternate options; otherwise, it wouldn't be a choice.
Choice: Noun: The act of selecting or making a decision between two or more possibilities.
If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. - J.R.R Tolkien
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