Uganda passing law that allows them to put homosexuals to death.

[Kousbroek]

Of course it's a problem - it spreads STI's and causes sexual addiction. If you don't think it's a problem ignore it and move on to the other two, and tell me how to address those.

The only problem i see is the way you talk about gay people and sexuality.
Your narrow-mindedness seems to know no boundaries and i think that is sad because you also seem to be a nice guy.
High unemployment rates among gay people imo is a side effect from still not being accepted in most societies.
Not being accepted just because who you are, not because you did anything wrong or harmful to anybody but just because you are alive will sooner or later have a profound effect and people like you with ideas like you have sure don't help Daniel.

Drug use ... could you be a little more specific about that because i've learned over the yrs that most people have quite a distorted view on what that really is.

[festive1]

Of course it's a problem - it spreads STI's and causes sexual addiction. If you don't think it's a problem ignore it and move on to the other two, and tell me how to address those.

The only problem i see is the way you talk about gay people and sexuality.
Your narrow-mindedness seems to know no boundaries and i think that is sad because you also seem to be a nice guy.
High unemployment rates among gay people imo is a side effect from still not being accepted in most societies.
Not being accepted just because who you are, not because you did anything wrong or harmful to anybody but just because you are alive will sooner or later have a profound effect and people like you with ideas like you have sure don't help Daniel.

Drug use ... could you be a little more specific about that because i've learned over the yrs that most people have quite a distorted view on what that really is.

Typically people who aren't accepted by their mainstream society can also have issues with drug abuse. In this context, it's a means of escaping one's ostracism and even becoming accepted by a subculture. Plus, there's a lot of violent history that many Africans have lived through... Watching your village, including your family and friends being murdered would be enough to cause some serious mental instability for most people. So they turn to drugs.... Even in cases where someone didn't witness violence, the general hopelessness/impending destruction of one's home culture, society, and country is pretty depressing. Of course this is not applicable to all cases, but I'd bet it's still a high percentage for drug users.

[Jaysyn]

Granted, they have no right to be anti-gay without also being equally against the rest of "sinful" sexuality. Sinful?

Please tell me where in your Bible it says drug use (wine is a "drug" BTW) or group sex is "sinful". I won't even get into the whole "sin" thing being complete bullshit.

[Minimalist]

You misunderstood. 20% unemployment, 24% engage in group sex and 25% use illicit drugs. These are all clear problems, how would you address them politically (besides ignoring the fact that there is a problem)? I'm not suggesting the criminalization of homosexuality at all FYI, that's really not what I'm about.

Perhaps you need to stop using your silly beliefs as a basis for judging what other people do? That would be a good start.

[TaraJo]

Okay, so killing gay people isn't the correct response. How would you address these problems politically?

To start with, we tell the pope to go fuck himself and give the people down there REAL information on sexuality and even distribute condoms. One of the biggest problms in Africa is AIDS and this would do a lot to help. I know, abstinence would be nice, but abstinence only sex education has pretty much been proven not to work.

As for high unemployment, that will solve itself as the region gains general stability which, in turn, will be more possible if the AIDS epidemic is brought under control. Government can't create jobs for people because the government is almost non existant in some areas (and the government doesn't exist at all in Somalia). Private business doesn't want to put people to work there because they're afraid that if they spend ten mil to build a factory, it's going to be torn down by warlords before they can even make back the money they spent to build it in the first place. Right now, the only way anyone can make significant money from Africa (on a global scale at least) is by extracting natural resources. Problem there is, long term, that just leaves Africa poorer and poorer.

[Aractus]

Ummm... I studied history in school, mainly African diaspora history (ie. African American, Caribbean, etc.). But there was a healthy dose of African history, anthropology, and culture thrown in the mix as well. I have personally only visited Kenya, however, I live with and am married to someone who works exclusively in the politics of Africa and has visited about 50 different countries on the continent. I've learned a lot through discussing various political and cultural issues with him.

What I mean is that if Christianity had such an impact on their views on sexuality, then it doesn't seem to show in relation to their opinions on promiscuity, adultery and prostitution. It's cherry picking to blame the anti-gay movement on anything other than hard right politics. Certainly I would never advocate the criminalization of homosexual acts, I can't reconcile that as being positive for society in general.

You are correct, in many cultures in Africa, what we in the West would consider "promiscuous" sexual behavior, is normal. This includes multiple partners and polygamy. This does not make their views "bad" or "sinful," just different.

The USA presently produces and then gives to the whole world violent forms of pornography. Now, granted, even I wouldn't suggest that all "violent sex" is bad - but do I see a problem with what the USA does? Of course, because pornography isn't even about displaying what is wonderful about sex, it's more about pushing the extremes, demeaning women, etc. In many ways I think what the USA gives us now is even worse than the Child Pornography that Denmark gave us in the 70's.

To get back to this specific point, adultery is by definition alone bad. It's bad for families, for children, for parents, it affects friends and family. Promiscuity is also bad - one of my very best friends has been extremely promiscuous throughout his adult life, and even he himself will attest to this - even though he continues to be promiscuous. Like the smokers who say it's bad, and the drug users who tell us drugs are bad.

To say they are "bad" or "sinful" is to impose a Western sense of morality on a non-Western society. Because these are not Western societies, this is an incorrect stance to take. However, these societies have their own limits on what is acceptable. For instance, a woman can have multiple lovers and a husband, but isn't allowed to be "open" about these extramarital relationships. Everyone knows about them, but no one talks about them. This taboo of talking about one's sex life is a big contributor to the AIDS rates in Africa. People claim they only have sex with their spouses, but in fact they have multiple sex partners.

That is pretty much how it is in Africa, yes.

The figures you present are from an African diaspora community currently living in Australia.

Nope, I gave you figures from the Gay community here in Canberra. Unemployment in Canberra (2011) 3.8% - Unemployment Gay community in Canberra (2011) over 20%. Those figures are right here where I live, they're not invented and they're taken from a trusted source.

---

The only problem i see is the way you talk about gay people and sexuality.
Your narrow-mindedness seems to know no boundaries and i think that is sad because you also seem to be a nice guy.

Don't presume to think you know what I am on about. I'll let you know very soon my own ideas to the exact same question I asked everyone else to answer. Since you haven't even heard them yet, it's a bit soon to start criticizing.

High unemployment rates among gay people imo is a side effect from still not being accepted in most societies.
Not being accepted just because who you are, not because you did anything wrong or harmful to anybody but just because you are alive will sooner or later have a profound effect and people like you with ideas like you have sure don't help Daniel.

So you would address the problem - how?

Drug use ... could you be a little more specific about that because i've learned over the yrs that most people have quite a distorted view on what that really is.

Distorted how?

[Brian37]

What can I say to the topic of this thread than FUCKING SICK!

[festive1]

What I mean is that if Christianity had such an impact on their views on sexuality, then it doesn't seem to show in relation to their opinions on promiscuity, adultery and prostitution. It's cherry picking to blame the anti-gay movement on anything other than hard right politics. Certainly I would never advocate the criminalization of homosexual acts, I can't reconcile that as being positive for society in general.

Well, if you go into a traditional society, tell people their beliefs are wrong and they should follow your belief system in it's place, it doesn't always work. As in the case of Africa, many people nominally switch their religion to Christian when missionaries show up, but they don't necessarily change their hearts or minds about their traditional societal values. They don't necessarily change their views on sexuality, instead they keep their "un-Christian" sexual practices in the closet, so to speak. If one's traditional society allows for multiple sex partners and spouses, why change to a system that condemns you to hell for practicing such things? To do so is to condemn friends and family to hell for still practicing the "old ways." Not to mention, many traditional African societies practice some form of ancestor worship, so all those revered ancestors would actually be burning in hell. To go into a traditional society and tell people their belief system is wrong... well that's ethnocentric and a denial of the positive points of the traditional system.

The USA presently produces and then gives to the whole world violent forms of pornography. Now, granted, even I wouldn't suggest that all "violent sex" is bad - but do I see a problem with what the USA does? Of course, because pornography isn't even about displaying what is wonderful about sex, it's more about pushing the extremes, demeaning women, etc. In many ways I think what the USA gives us now is even worse than the Child Pornography that Denmark gave us in the 70's.

And how exactly does this pertain to Africa?

To get back to this specific point, adultery is by definition alone bad. It's bad for families, for children, for parents, it affects friends and family. Promiscuity is also bad - one of my very best friends has been extremely promiscuous throughout his adult life, and even he himself will attest to this - even though he continues to be promiscuous. Like the smokers who say it's bad, and the drug users who tell us drugs are bad.

Adultery in Western society is considered bad. Promiscuity in Western society is considered bad. Simply because Westerners view these things as bad, doesn't mean every other society shares that view. It doesn't mean those other societies are wrong, either. Just different. Like I pointed out, traditional societies in Africa have a series of balances that allow people to have multiple sex partners within a given society. Simply because they don't conform to Western views of morality, doesn't make them wrong, bad, sinful (choose your shaming descriptor). Perhaps what is wrong in this scenario is the Western sense of morality. Biologically speaking, having multiple sex partners is a good thing. It diversifies the gene pool. Most people, Westerners included, have more than one sex partner throughout their lifetimes.

That is pretty much how it is in Africa, yes.

And how do you know this? What is your experience with Africa? Did you study African cultures in school? Have you ever been?

Nope, I gave you figures from the Gay community here in Canberra. Unemployment in Canberra (2011) 3.8% - Unemployment Gay community in Canberra (2011) over 20%. Those figures are right here where I live, they're not invented and they're taken from a trusted source.

If these figures are taken from a community, of mainly white, Australians, how are they representative of Africans? Are you saying that because the gay community in Canberra has a higher unemployment rate, more drug use, and more group sex than the general population, that it must be applicable to other gay communities in different countries? If so, I'm sorry, I won't take that leap with you.

[Kousbroek]

The only problem i see is the way you talk about gay people and sexuality.
Your narrow-mindedness seems to know no boundaries and i think that is sad because you also seem to be a nice guy.

Don't presume to think you know what I am on about. I'll let you know very soon my own ideas to the exact same question I asked everyone else to answer. Since you haven't even heard them yet, it's a bit soon to start criticizing.

High unemployment rates among gay people imo is a side effect from still not being accepted in most societies.
Not being accepted just because who you are, not because you did anything wrong or harmful to anybody but just because you are alive will sooner or later have a profound effect and people like you with ideas like you have sure don't help Daniel.

So you would address the problem - how?

Drug use ... could you be a little more specific about that because i've learned over the yrs that most people have quite a distorted view on what that really is.

Distorted how?

Do you know what "beat around the bush " means Daniel ?

I would be surprised if you don't because you're very good at it ...
I don't presume anything i'm merely reacting to what you are writing.

You state that gays are a bunch of promiscuous STD carrying scallywag drug users ( more than non gays ) and that that is such a huge problem, and you tell me that i don't know what you are on about ....

And it doesn't stop there no it gets even worse ...

"adultery is by definition alone bad. It's bad for families, for children, for parents, it affects friends and family."

"Promiscuity is also bad "

"In many ways I think what the USA gives us now is even worse than the Child Pornography that Denmark gave us in the 70's."

....... I really don't know where to start Daniel, i don't want to resort to ad hominem attacks but you make it really hard for me to have some sort of understanding about your way of thinking ...

You and your ilk are imo the main reason of the so called problems you put forward.

"So you would address the problem - how?"

I am aren't i ?
I am trying to reason with you and try to make you understand that looking at people through your religious goggles is just plain wrong and VERY disrespectful.

[Aractus]

Adultery in Western society is considered bad. Promiscuity in Western society is considered bad. Simply because Westerners view these things as bad, doesn't mean every other society shares that view.

It's not just considered bad - it is bad.

And how do you know this? What is your experience with Africa? Did you study African cultures in school? Have you ever been?

I do a lot of reading, and I've been told by African people on numerous occasions about their practises.

I was talking to a Saudi Arabian 2 years ago - he was a pretty extremist Muslim, and he was telling me about how great his country is. I rattled a few facts off my head like if it's so great why can't women drive, and how would their economy survive without crude oil etc, and he said "how do you know so much about Saudi?"

If these figures are taken from a community, of mainly white, Australians, how are they representative of Africans? Are you saying that because the gay community in Canberra has a higher unemployment rate, more drug use, and more group sex than the general population, that it must be applicable to other gay communities in different countries? If so, I'm sorry, I won't take that leap with you.

You've misunderstood. It simply shows that in the gay community drug use is higher, STI's are higher, number of sexual partners in the last 6 months is higher, unemployment is higher, etc, this isn't unique to Canberra - it's the same in Sydney, Melbourne, and the other capital cities where the periodic surveys are done. I imagine the same would be true in the USA and other western countries. How would you address the problems is my question. You're not going to tell people not to engage in gay sex, you're not going to tell them not to have gay relationships - how will you address the issues of drugs, STI's and unemployment in the gay community - besides "do nothing"?

---

You state that gays are a bunch of promiscuous STD carrying scallywag drug users ( more than non gays ) and that that is such a huge problem, and you tell me that i don't know what you are on about ....

Incorrect, I don't tell you it at all. The information is supplied here. I'm simply pointing out what it says, nothing more.

....... I really don't know where to start Daniel, i don't want to resort to ad hominem attacks but you make it really hard for me to have some sort of understanding about your way of thinking ...

You and your ilk are imo the main reason of the so called problems you put forward.

And naturally you have evidence?