More shootings.

[Brian37]

I'd say when we get to the point of Japan's gun death rate, we'd be on the right track, but right now Australia vs America doesn't mean much to me, much less the victims of any gun death.

Well from what I've seen, nothing means much to you when it doesn't support your own point of view. Explain to me why the UK's murder rate went up when they banned guns. It just doesn't support your point of view.

Stats ARE NOT my point of view anymore than the earth is not flat is my point of view. If you think 32 gun deaths A DAY is a FACT worth ignoring, I'd say change your medication.

Bad economy. More social instability more crime, that STILL does not mean we should ignore the physical damage guns do or the ease of which they can be obtained.

Someone else here already used the "shit happens" and "other shit happens too" as an excuse.

There is never ONE factor in society's dynamics up or down, anymore than DNA of any form of life has always been stagnate. You are merely saying "do nothing".

I am sorry that their murder rates went up, but why does it have to be a choice between more guns or less guns. How about LESS GUNS and also work on social ills, NO MATTER what crimes go up.

Japan has had it's economic instability too, and just suffered it's worse disaster in the past century. But they still have a very low crime rate, very low gun death, no matter what goes up or down.

All I see you doing is making excuses.

[Creed of Heresy]

Every time I hear an argument which is "BUT BOMBS" or "BUT SHARP OBJECTS", I want to ask "why don't people use those weapons, instead"? Two-thirds of homicides in America are committed with firearms.

Guns give a combination of lethality and ease that no other weapon provides.

Uh. Lots of people use knives in murders. In fact the El Salvadoran gang MS-13 prides itself on practically exclusive use of knives whenever they kill someone.

And why don't people use bombs? Because guns are easily within reach. Before you go "A-HA!" just think about that for a moment. They're using guns because bombs are harder to make...but, do you think, deprived of a gun, crazies like this guy are just going to, what, give up? Murdering firefighters and children; yeah I'm sure that having to go with a slightly more difficult route will really stop them. Really pumps the ol' brakes. Please. Necessity is the mother of innovation, after all.

I would also like to ask where crazy people will 'find' guns if they are banned and gradually eradicated, and ammunition sales also become illegal. You can't grow them in gardens or make them out of household items. When will you understand that the reason it's so easy to find illegal guns is because we keep making and distributing ostensibly 'legal' ones? Banning guns and ammo would not solve the problem tomorrow, and the italicized word seems to make gun advocates throw their hands up and say WASTE OF TIME THEN.

Pffffft! You know how many MEGATONS of drugs enter this country yearly? Oh yes, the banning of legally-sold firearms will REALLY halt the influx of ammunition and firearms! I'm fuckin' dying with laughter here, man, that's the most ridiculous suggestion I've ever heard. In fact, one of the firearms I, admittedly illegally, procured and still own? It was manufactured and sold in Canada and brought into Upper Michigan and from there, along with a bunch of others, into Lower Michigan and from there it found its way into Detroit, like many do, since background checks are necessary for any legal sale of firearms.

I think it's completely incorrect to present this as a "one or the other" choice. We should be doing both. I know, this does not mesh with A Theist's strawman gun control advocate. Sorry.

I do agree that sales need to be much more tightly monitored and controlled. There are certain states where it's as easy as walk-in-walk-out. Texas comes to mind, there.

But it's not going to do much of anything, I'm afraid. You wanna see the homicide rate go into freefall in the US? Put a looot more funding into policing the worst of the inner cities, put a lot more funding into educational programs and start getting economic incentives in place for businesses to start up in them. Community outreach programs go a long way towards that and such programs are largely why the homicide rate has been steadily dropping for the last couple decades.

I understand your position, Ryan, and I laud you for your conviction in it. I just also find it to be very naive. You'd essentially be willing to smack the vast sweeping majority of responsible gun owners in the face because of, to borrow a really old saying, "a few bad apples." I do understand WHY; a murder is a murder. But punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty is not the answer...especially when it will hurt the innocent FAR more than the guilty.

And also I'm tired of hearing about other nations with strict gun control laws being safer...especially when their murder rates have always been ridiculously low and the dropping of their homicide rates have never coincided with such gun laws, either. It's an invalid association.

---

I am sorry that their murder rates went up, but why does it have to be a choice between more guns or less guns. How about LESS GUNS and also work on social ills, NO MATTER what crimes go up.

How about guns are not the problem and like anything else if someone wants them there will always be someone to provide them? You're basically saying "I don't care if millions of people who don't commit murder have to pay the price for a few thousand who do; if I THINK it is a good thing then it must be!" Meanwhile completely ignoring the fact that there is no correlation between gun ownership and violence AT ALL. It's like being diagnosed with cancer and the doctor gives you a smallpox vaccination. Completely unrelated to one another.

[Brian37]

You're basically saying "I don't care if millions of people who don't commit murder have to pay the price for a few thousand who do;

Wisky and tango and foxtrot?

NO, am saying "other shit happens too" is being used as an excuse to ignore gun death.

The people who own guns who don't commit murder does not outweigh the intent of the manufacturer's whom they have become pawns for. EVEN most of the NRA members despite their own leaders ignoring the members, ADMIT gun death is a problem and want something to be done about it and are willing to give up on the military style weapons and large clips.

It simply amounts to money. It sickened me that after the school shooting sales of guns went up. Now, that is not because most gun owners did that, but because of the feeling of fear the industry uses to keep the status quo.

[Creed of Heresy]

So...the manufacturers of firearms are all selling the guns so we gun each other down? What sense does that make? I mean that's what you're suggesting the intent of all gunsmiths is. And, I dunno who most of these individuals are...I have a fairly extensive group of friends who are into guns along with myself...none of them are willing to give up ANYTHING just because some other assholes are killing people. Do you have a source you can cite on this? Because I sure as fuck have no inclination towards giving up ANYTHING of my own just because some psychotic dickheads are using firearms of their own to murder others.

[A Theist]

Every time I hear an argument which is "BUT BOMBS" or "BUT SHARP OBJECTS", I want to ask "why don't people use those weapons, instead"? Two-thirds of homicides in America are committed with firearms.

Guns give a combination of lethality and ease that no other weapon provides.

I would also like to ask where crazy people will 'find' guns if they are banned and gradually eradicated, and ammunition sales also become illegal. You can't grow them in gardens or make them out of household items. When will you understand that the reason it's so easy to find illegal guns is because we keep making and distributing ostensibly 'legal' ones? Banning guns and ammo would not solve the problem tomorrow, and the italicized word seems to make gun advocates throw their hands up and say WASTE OF TIME THEN.

You can argue for banning guns all you'd like, I'd rather argue for getting more money allocated to alleviating the root cause of the problem.

I think it's completely incorrect to present this as a "one or the other" choice. We should be doing both. I know, this does not mesh with A Theist's strawman gun control advocate. Sorry.

"I know, this does not mesh with A Theist's strawman gun control advocate. Sorry."....Not much of what you say is meshing with anybody on this side of the issue, especially when you (gun) control fanatics try to dominate the debate by setting your own terms for this conversation...Sorry if some of these guys aren't playing by your rules.

[Zen Badger]

Enjoy your guns America, meanwhile watch your children die in their droves by the guns you love so much.

I'm finished here.

[Autumnlicious]

It doesn't matter that guns are so readily available, that Rhythm admits that gun regulations are not enforced, etc,.

It doesn't matter that the "go-to" weapon for committing homicide is guns due to their ubiquity.

It doesn't matter that a spectrum of enforcement, health care and restrictions would drastically reduce the current rate of murders, copy-cat sprees.

It does not matter that the mentally unstable can acquire weapons that can eject 40 bullets easily (for a handgun) and have room to spare.

It. does. not. matter. at all.

To so-called gun advocates.

Clearly NOTHING is wrong. Nothing has ever been wrong.

Fine. Have your fucking guns.

Hope your "freedom" is worth it.

---

P.S. I hope, nay, wish for many, many more dead children to water your bloody roses of "Freedom to kill, anytime, anywhere".

---

P.P.S -- Every time I've tried to move things towards a restrictive but happy medium, I'm caught between "You can't infringe my freedom!" and "Ban all guns".

Fine. Ban them.

Because clearly the majority, the arms sales stats that we see right after every mass shooting spree, the advocates only care about buying their precious death-throwers.

They're not organizing to prevent these occurrences -- they're merely building the next environment for it.

Fuck all.

[TaraJo]

Gun talks put me in a strange position. I'm not full fledged on either 'side.'

That being said, I do see some alarming trends coming from the right. I see a lot of scary talk from the NRA and their supporters. Gun nuts first reaction isn't grief over the children who were killed, but a knee-jerk reaction to grab onto their guns tighter in fear that the government is going to take them away. The NRA is even worse in that their response to every one of these tragedies seems to be "More guns!" However, since the NRA is a lobbying group funded by gun manufacturers, I can fully understand why they have a vested financial interest in having as many weapons out there as possible. That doesn't mean I agree with them, but I understand why they say the stupid things they do. I can take comfort in the fact that many Republicans are backing away from their statements, but that shouldn't be surprising; when the GOP is trying to promote themselves as the party for reduction in government spending, the last thing they're going to want to do is pay for an armed security guard outside every school across the nation.

I also don't like just looking at single aspects of incidents like this, either, and I don't like looking at it with a preconsecption on what the answers are. If we knew the answers, we would have implimented them a long time ago. I think overall availability of guns across the nation would probably help, but I don't see it happening (not to mention, it would take a long time for it to show any positive results). Like it or not, America has an extremely strong gun culture and they'd rather give up a host of other rights if they had to choose between those rights and their guns. However, if you specifically read the second amendment, it does specifically reference "a well regulated militia." That's important because, while I'm not really in support of taking away everyone's guns, I do think we need to do a better job at regulating them.

The statement that people can still build bombs and kill people without guns is true, but there's a bit more to the story. Without a gun, you need the technical knowledge to build a bomb and you have to have a plan on how, when and where to set it off. I'd be more than willing to bet that the great majority of the mentally ill people lack some of what would be needed to pull it off.

I also think we need to look at the mental health angle to this, but what can we do about it? There are already laws preventing people with certain mental illnesses from owning a gun.

However, as much as there is to this, as much as there is we need to do, as much as we can change, it isn't going to get done any time soon. The typical strategy of the NRA is going to save their asses again. They simply get their pundits to stall any meaningful change and wait until everyone forgets about this. The only way I see real change happening is when the shootings are so back-to-back that we don't have a period where one of them isn't fresh on our minds. Sadly, I see us getting close to that; there was only a 5 month gap between the Batman theater shooting and this one. If they get much closer together, even the NRA won't be able to stall long enough to prevent change.

[Shell B]

Syn, wishing for bloody children helps. I know you can't possibly mean that.

A happy medium is ideal.

Now, the only reason I decided to post is because, A. Theist, while I do not entirely agree with you, as you are a bit too pro-arsenal for my taste, I do not entirely disagree with you. I just want you to know that you are large quoting across the board and then putting what you are actually responding to in bold beneath your quote and it is making me a little bananas. Please, for the love of all that is structure, just put what you are quoting between the quote tags and refrain from quoting the rest. Thanks.

[downbeatplumb]

Actually we have quite the opposite, I've pointed it out several times, and been thoroughly ignored by the anti gun crowd on here, but the UK's murder rate went up when they enacted their current gun laws in 1963 and rose throughout the next decades. If guns are this huge contributing factor in murder, I'm still waiting for the explanation on that one.

http://www.murderuk.com/misc_crime_stats.html

Drugs and gangs.

We like to be like america in every way.