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RE: Burden of Proof
January 9, 2013 at 4:51 pm
(January 9, 2013 at 3:20 pm)Rhythm Wrote: @ Mark
Since I've seen you mention how many people (and what type of people) become religious at some point more than once.....I'm going to have to inform you that you're flirting with both an appeal to authority, and an appeal to a majority/numbers - etc. It's as useless as shifting the burden of proof (for precisely the same reason) - so...it's no more compelling or reasonable than mentioning that many who once believed no longer do-and that these people are often very intelligent.
Maybe its just me but I find people tend to be the strangest mix of reasonableness and unreasonableness and the most seeming rational people can behave in the most irrational ways and vice versa. I love people they just wont go into the neat little boxes that other people will try to put them in. Every person is interesting because they are unique. I cant help seeing beauty of the Tiger even if when its disected most of its parts aren,t particularly appealing. Why do i appreciate the beauty of a Tiger , shit I don't care, I don't need to explain it, I just do. "why do birds sing".
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 9, 2013 at 4:59 pm
(This post was last modified: January 9, 2013 at 5:02 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
It would be strange if it weren't entirely common I suppose. A person can be interesting without their opinions having any merit, and while I'm with you, people are interesting, it still bears mention in this conversation that this doesn't make the contents of their faith (or lack thereof) any more compelling. I had a neighbor named John who seran wrapped dogs (to keep them clean), nailed cabbage patch dolls to trees(to keep them honest), and had a habit of standing on dumpsters yelling "I'm the king of the dumpster" (to keep them in their place) before breaking out into song...all of this around 2am nightly. Very interesting guy, but I don't think that he was actually the king of the dumpster, or that his actions kept the dumpster in it's place, the cabbage patch dolls honest, or his dog clean. Know what I mean?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 9, 2013 at 5:14 pm
(January 9, 2013 at 1:55 pm)Zone Wrote: (January 9, 2013 at 1:47 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: You're wasting your time.
Mark does not value evidence or reasoned argument to support his beliefs.
I'm sure he can be helped to understand what atheism is about even if he has some kind of inner personal conviction of his relationship to God or Jesus or whatever. Though his inner conviction won't be much good as evidence for us.
I'm more in tune with your vibe, I'm here to have a place to bat ideas around , to learn about you guys , to have my ideas challenged sure , but not to be continually harranged with prove prove prove WTF. You can't prove so shut up being the implication. Or your not an atheist so your a fucktard however it is dressed up. Or because I point out what I am experiencing I'm a whining ninny, when all I'm attempting to do is see can I create a healthier more fun place to actually have a conversation and find out more about each other. My tag was a big clue guys that I'm not just going to running back to mummy "ooh those people were so nasty, they called me names" nor so whimpy that i wont say something cos those nasty people will come after me again. I can have a few pints with mates and discuss this stuff and we can have a laugh and a disagreement at the same time. I'm fairly sure that most of us would actually get on fine and have some fun conversations in real life as we would have so many other cues that we cant have by the nature of the distance. The net seems to have the effect of lowering the barrier to poor responses for some reason. Yes I ramble on , yes I forget my spelling and grammer but WTF, lets just have a chat.
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 9, 2013 at 5:16 pm
(This post was last modified: January 9, 2013 at 5:23 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Mark, if you cant support a claim then -you- should find that troubling as well, it's not just an issue of others criticizing you, if you're here to challenge yourself you have to understand the gravity of the charge. Why do you think that it would be such a good thing if people didn;t challenge you, what would you be accomplishing (lay aside whether or not your claims convince someone...what would you be accomplishing even for yourself?) Keep in mind that you're not likely to make a claim that we haven't heard about a dozen times in the last two or three months.....
If what you want to say is illogical (and insisting that you should be allowed to leverage a fallacy in peace is illogical), it isn't just that it is unconvincing, it demonstrates that you haven't actually been able to form the thought properly in your own mind - you've short changed yourself. No one is required to offer a competing explanation, and no competing explanation is required to demonstrate that you have done so. Even worse, a competing explanation wouldn't actually have any value in challenging your own unless you leveraged logic in the first fucking place.......which, if you're deadset on the validity of fallacy - is an undertaking doomed to failure.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 9, 2013 at 5:17 pm
(January 9, 2013 at 4:59 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It would be strange if it weren't entirely common I suppose. A person can be interesting without their opinions having any merit, and while I'm with you, people are interesting, it still bears mention in this conversation that this doesn't make the contents of their faith (or lack thereof) any more compelling. I had a neighbor named John who seran wrapped dogs (to keep them clean), nailed cabbage patch dolls to trees(to keep them honest), and had a habit of standing on dumpsters yelling "I'm the king of the dumpster" (to keep them in their place) before breaking out into song...all of this around 2am nightly. Very interesting guy, but I don't think that he was actually the king of the dumpster, or that his actions kept the dumpster in it's place, the cabbage patch dolls honest, or his dog clean. Know what I mean? True but apart from that ; you learned a lot from him if not directly then indirectly; you learned about yourself.
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 9, 2013 at 5:24 pm
(January 9, 2013 at 4:51 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: "why do birds sing".
Birds have two songs "wanna fuck" and "fuck off"
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 9, 2013 at 5:25 pm
(This post was last modified: January 9, 2013 at 5:25 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 9, 2013 at 5:17 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: True but apart from that ; you learned a lot from him if not directly then indirectly; you learned about yourself.
I learned that cocaine is a horrible drug for some folks...and not much else.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 9, 2013 at 5:25 pm
(January 9, 2013 at 5:16 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Mark, if you cant support a claim then -you- should find that troubling as well, it's not just an issue of others criticizing you, if you're here to challenge yourself you have you understand the gravity of the charge. Why do you think that it would be such a good thing if people didn;t challenge you, what would you be accomplishing (lay aside whether or not your claims convince someone...what would you be accomplishing even for yourself?) Keep in mind that you're not likely to make a claim that we haven't heard about a dozen times in the last two or three months.....
If I was to say that I can be arguementative i'm sure you would agree, when I was a teenager I was worse but you know the strange thing I learned about myself even if I was arguing and even if I Won or thought I won the arguement , when the arguement was over and I moved out of self defence mode I could often then re-look at some of what the other said and refine my views. I haven't changed that much and my views are constantly refined but that doesn't mean a U turn on fundamentals it just means better understanding of what part of what I believe is actually fundamental and what is not.
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 9, 2013 at 5:27 pm
(This post was last modified: January 9, 2013 at 5:29 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
If your fundamentals require the use of a logical fallacy, then a U-turn is in order. It's not even an issue of whether or not your fundamentals are true, but that if you insist upon approaching them in the way you have been thusfar you won't actually have any measure of certainty that they are. Mull that over for a minute.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 9, 2013 at 5:28 pm
(This post was last modified: January 9, 2013 at 5:33 pm by Mark 13:13.)
(January 9, 2013 at 5:25 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (January 9, 2013 at 5:17 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: True but apart from that ; you learned a lot from him if not directly then indirectly; you learned about yourself.
I learned that cocaine is a horrible drug for some folks...and not much else.
So if he had not been there and others like him how would you have learned about qualities in yourself like tolerance and patience and decision making if they are never tested?
(January 9, 2013 at 5:27 pm)Rhythm Wrote: If your fundamentals require the use of a logical fallacy, then a U-turn is in order.
Logic, logic, logic i'm going to listen to the music not count the notes and discuss the bars and movements. Then I will make my decision if I like what I hear. I understand there is uncertainty inherent in my position but that's why I call it a faith and I can live with that.
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