For People Who Think There Was No Historical Jesus

[Zone]

It matters about as much as how Islam or Mormonism got started if it isn't actually true. Charismatic individuals throughout history founded various religious movements, Christianity happens to be the most populat of em.

[DeistPaladin]

I dunno, Mr. Dawkins never explained why aliens would have wanted to seed life on earth...
(ignore facetious me, lol)

You do realize that the Dawkins interview by Ben Stein was heavily edited and his musings were quote mined, yes?

[Confused Ape]

It spread to the Greek speaking gentiles because of St Pauls missionary work. Originally it was just a heretical sect of Judiasm, which St Paul was involved with perrsecuting until he had his visionary experience.

There's no concrete evidence that St Paul actually existed but it's difficult to see how Christianity would have spread without someone like him telling the Greek speaking gentiles.

How did this heretical sect of Judaism start when it did, though, if there was nobody who could have qualified as being an historical Jesus?

Imma gunna pull the Richard Dawkins card and suggest that aliens seeded the start of Christianity...
.

If you think about it the God of the bible falls under the catagory of an 'alien' or transdeminsional being.

I don't think Richard Dawkins would suggest that the God of the Bible was the alien being who started Christianity.

[catfish]

I don't think Richard Dawkins would suggest that the God of the Bible was the alien being who started Christianity.

Why not? He admits that aliens could have seeded life here...




.

[Zone]

There are essentially three ways life could have started on Earth.

1) Magic

2)



3) Something to do with hydrothermal vents

[DeistPaladin]

One question I always have in discussions like this is:

What do you mean by "historical Jesus" if you want to throw out all the miracles, divinity and other supernatural elements?

I recently had a debate on this topic in this forum. Are the Gospels "based on a true story"? This, to me, is the bare minimum for a real person to qualify as a "historical Jesus".

Is this what you mean, Confused Ape? Let's do a "Jefferson" and take out all the supernatural stuff from the Gospels and call it an approximation of what really happened?

You might like to take a look at the conclusion to the debate I had on whether or not the Gospels are based on a true story. Click Here.

Put bluntly, I could not possibly care less if there was "some-guy-named-Yeshua-who-was-a-religious-teacher". Yeshua was a common name in that time and place and doom crier/messiah wannabe were common professions. If your definition of "The Historical Jesus" is this vague, you can likely find several in 1st century Judea that fit that description. This is why the oblique references in the Annals of Tacitus and the Jamesian Reference in Josephus, even if we can be so charitable as to overlook the problems with both, do not avail the apologist in this debate. There are insufficient details in both to assert that the Gospels are at least based on a true story. Now the Testimonium Flavianum, if it WERE authentic, WOULD be the kind of evidence the apologist would need. I've already reviewed why it is not.

[Confused Ape]

So your putting together an arguement, and you need help filling in the holes.

I think there's a possibility that somebody qualified as being an historical Jesus. Some people insist that there wasn't anyone, though, so I'm wondering how they can answer the questions I asked. I added the bit about barking mad ideas permitted so the topic can be a fun exercise as well as a serious one.

Personally, I find the urban legend idea much more compelling than a vague idea of "some guy named Yeshua who was some kind of religious preacher or something but we don't know much else about him".

***Will respond to new thread shortly***

Urban legend is a feasible idea because urban legends are with us today.

It matters about as much as how Islam or Mormonism got started if it isn't actually true. Charismatic individuals throughout history founded various religious movements, Christianity happens to be the most populat of em.

It doesn't matter in the sense that Christianity is here and has been for 2,000 years. Some people try to convince Christians that it's all a load of rhubarb by just saying that there wasn't anyone who could have been an historical Jesus. I don't see how this would convince Christians if there isn't an alternate explanation for how Christianity got started.

@DeistPaladin

One question I always have in discussions like this is:

What do you mean by "historical Jesus" if you want to throw out all the miracles, divinity and other supernatural elements?

In this case just some man who was regarded as a Messiah by a few people in Judea. I don't find the idea of somebody starting a new Messianic movement impossible because of all the new religions which started up last century and this century. Most are offshoots of existing religions but some are New Age, Neo Pagan and UFO cults.

List Of New Religious Movements

In this post I reported finding a new cult whose leaders claim to be Jesus and Mary Magdalene reincarnated and it appears they've got followers.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-17095-po...#pid399124

[Minimalist]

The ancient Jews were living under Roman oppression.

Were they? Because in the reigns of Augustus and Tiberius the Jews had it pretty good. They were exempt from certain taxes and military obligations. When the Jews petitioned Augustus to remove Archelaus and become a Roman Prefecture ( 6 AD) Augustus agreed. The country was prospering as part of the empire and after Herod built Caesarea they were part of the commercial links to the rest of the empire. They had a measure of home rule as the Prefect made his headquarters in Caesarea and the high priest and sanheddrin were allowed to handle local matters in Jerusalem. Finally when large scale rioting broke out in Alexandria it was because the Greco-Roman citizens were angry at the Jews' special treatment.

Just where was all this "oppression?"

[Zone]

If Jesus didn't exist then it could have originated as the script of an esoteric Mystery drama Jewish initates would have participated in much the same as the Mysteries of Mithras which was an adaptation of Zoroastrianism, Christianity being the adaptation of Judiaism. I think Jesus did exist historically though, he may have been mixed into some kind of mystical gnostic pagan thing.

[DeistPaladin]

[quote='Minimalist' pid='399700' dateline='1360600999']

Just where was all this "oppression?"

Sorry, I should explain.

When you're dealing with crybaby religious fanatics, any time they don't completely get their way, it's called "oppression".

My point was that the Jews thought they were the chosen people and had a covenant with the big celestial real estate agent and were confused that the seed of David wasn't on the throne as their holy book said. This was the problem.