For People Who Think There Was No Historical Jesus

[Minimalist]

But the question remains, how much of this alleged "persecution" really happened and how much was made up later on by those same church "fathers" who amended their holy horseshit to make it say what they needed it to say?

Fortunately, Candida Moss' book on the subject is due out in a couple of weeks.

[Confused Ape]

But the question remains, how much of this alleged "persecution" really happened and how much was made up later on by those same church "fathers" who amended their holy horseshit to make it say what they needed it to say?

Maybe the church fathers made some of it up and then it became a fad once martyrs who died for their faith were regarded as having special status.

At first, the term applied to Apostles.[1] Once Christians started to undergo persecution, the term came to be applied to those who suffered hardships for their faith.[1] Finally, it was restricted to those who had been killed for their faith.[1] The early Christian period before Constantine I was the "classic" age of martyrdom.[1] A martyr's death was considered a "baptism in blood," cleansing one of sin, similar to the effect of baptism in water. The "baptism in blood" provides an even greater picture, showing the faith that the martyr has for his/her Savior.[1] Early Christians venerated martyrs as powerful intercessors, and their utterances were treasured as inspired specially by the Holy Spirit.[1]

Loony fanatics could have advertised the fact that they were Christians who refused to follow the Roman way so they'd end up dead and go straight to Heaven.

[Minimalist]

Maybe the church fathers made some of it up and then it became a fad once martyrs who died for their faith were regarded as having special status.

The xtian cult of death in full bloom? I can see that.

Of course, we weren't the first to see it.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/persecutions.html

Pay Back Time: The Christian Torture Garden

'Wherever we look, bishops were encouraging the landed elites... to take firm and coercive action to make the peasantry Christian ...

Like it or not, this is what our sources tell us over and over again. Demonstrations of the power of the Christian God meant conversion. Miracles, wonders, exorcisms, temple-torching and shrine-smashing were in themselves acts of evangelisation."

– Richard Fletcher (The Conversion of Europe, p45)


With the triumph of Constantine the inmates came into possession of the asylum. Their insanities were to become the only acceptable world view. Demonic nonsense, dreamed up in the psychotic mind of the pious theologian, populated the natural world with monstrous phantoms and set Satan's familiars at every cherished spring and venerable grove. Ever more lurid descriptions of Hell instilled dread and terror. Every town and hamlet was polluted by limitless malevolence – from which the only deliverance was complete submission to Holy Mother Church and her rapacious agents.

Constantine placed himself at the head of the collective of Christian fraternities, rewarded their bishops and obtained their fawning adoration. Fanaticism was now pressed into service as the propaganda of a divine monarch; zealotry was directed, not merely at the pagan and the skeptic, but also at the brethren who had failed to understand the true nature of the political revolution, had failed to adapt to servitude in the kingdom of the world and still cast their eyes, wistfully, on an anticipated kingdom of heaven.

Christian monarchs would far surpass in resolution and cruelty the mild attempts of the pagan caesars to eliminate such unacceptable thoughts:

"In the century opened by the Peace of the Church, more Christians died for their faith at the hands of fellow Christians than had died before in all the persecutions."

– Ramsay MacMullen, Christianity and Paganism in the Fourth to Eighth Centuries, p14.

[Confused Ape]

The xtian cult of death in full bloom? I can see that.

Loonies could have accounted for the real deaths during this period. Never underestimate the stupidity of humans. If 39 members of the Heaven's Gate cult could commit mass suicide[2] in order to reach what they believed was an alien space craft following the Comet Hale–Bopp, which was at its brightest[3] in 1997, I wouldn't put it past loonies to provoke Roman officials into executing them in the early centuries of Christianity.

There were amphitheatres across the Roman empire.

Ancient Roman amphitheatres were major public venues, circular or oval in shape, and used for events such as gladiator combats, chariot races, venationes (animal slayings) and executions. About 230 Roman amphitheatres have been found across the area of the Roman Empire.

Maybe some officials obliged the loonies if they were running a bit short of criminals to execute. If they had enough they could have told the loonies to come back another time.

PS:The Order Of The Solar Temple was another 1990's cult which resulted in the deaths of 74 members.

Integral to the teachings of the Solar Temple was the belief that the Earth would face a worldwide catastrophe in the mid-1990s. In anticipation of this apocalyptic event, members believed it was necessary to enter a higher spiritual plane. Thus, on Oct. 4–5, 1994, 53 members of the Solar Temple in Canada and Switzerland were murdered or committed suicide, and the buildings in which they died were set on fire. A year later another 16 members killed themselves, and 5 more died similarly in March 1997.

[Minimalist]

Unknown...and probably unknowable. I have seen speculation that xtians made themselves unpopular and attracted the enmity of fellow citizens in much the same way as "witches" did in Europe. The problem with that is that xtians did not become numerous enough to be noticeable until the later 2d century and into the 3d and it was in the 3d century that official persecution did begin on a hit or miss basis. So, yeah, what you are saying is possible but there is not a long time frame for it.

My guess is that most of this shit grew out of the relative handful of executions that were carried out during the reign of Diocletian in the early 4th century and was still fresh in people's minds.

[Minimalist]

Speaking of Candida Moss - here is a little promo.

In The Myth of Persecution, Candida Moss, a leading expert on early Christianity, reveals how the early church exaggerated, invented, and forged stories of Christian martyrs and how the dangerous legacy of a martyrdom complex is employed today to silence dissent and galvanize a new generation of culture warriors.

According to cherished church tradition and popular belief, before the Emperor Constantine made Christianity legal in the fourth century, early Christians were systematically persecuted by a brutal Roman Empire intent on their destruction. As the story goes, vast numbers of believers were thrown to the lions, tortured, or burned alive because they refused to renounce Christ. These saints, Christianity’s inspirational heroes, are still venerated today.

Moss, however, exposes that the “Age of Martyrs” is a fiction—there was no sustained 300-year-long effort by the Romans to persecute Christians. Instead, these stories were pious exaggerations; highly stylized rewritings of Jewish, Greek, and Roman noble death traditions; and even forgeries designed to marginalize heretics, inspire the faithful, and fund churches.

The traditional story of persecution is still taught in Sunday school classes, celebrated in sermons, and employed by church leaders, politicians, and media pundits who insist that Christians were—and always will be—persecuted by a hostile, secular world. While violence against Christians does occur in select parts of the world today, the rhetoric of persecution is both misleading and rooted in an inaccurate history of the early church. Moss urges modern Christians to abandon the conspiratorial assumption that the world is out to get Christians and, rather, embrace the consolation, moral instruction, and spiritual guidance that these martyrdom stories provide.

Picked this up from Jim West's blog.

[Confused Ape]

Unknown...and probably unknowable.

So, yeah, what you are saying is possible but there is not a long time frame for it.

I was wondering if the Romans kept records of criminals but it seems that they didn't where the lower classes were concerned - we'll never know the names and crimes of people who were executed in the arenas. Maybe the real truth is on the lines of one loony Christian plus 19 ordinary criminals and the Christian writers recorded it as 20 Christians.

My guess is that most of this shit grew out of the relative handful of executions that were carried out during the reign of Diocletian in the early 4th century and was still fresh in people's minds.

The Candida Moss promo points out a very important reason for having as many martyrs as possible - to fund churches. And there were abbeys wanting pilgrims too including in Britain. If you didn't have enough martyrs to go round you could just make up a silly story like the one about Saint Winifred.

According to legend, Winifred was the daughter of a Welsh nobleman, Tyfid ap Eiludd. Her suitor, Caradog, was enraged when she decided to become a nun, and decapitated her.In one version of the tale, her head rolled downhill, and, where it stopped, a healing spring appeared. Winifred's head was subsequently rejoined to her body due to the efforts of her maternal uncle, Saint Beuno, and she was restored to life. She later became a nun and abbess at Gwytherin in Denbighshire, and Caradog, cursed by Beuno, melted into the ground.[1] More elaborate versions of this tale relate many details of her life, including Winifred's pilgrimage to Rome.

In spite of the slim records for this period, there appears to be a historical basis for this personage. Winifred's brother Owain is known to have killed Caradog as revenge for a crime. She succeeded the Abbess, Saint Tenoi, who is believed to be her maternal grand-aunt.[2]

Saint Beuno did better than Jesus there - he never stuck anyone's head back on or made someone melt into the ground. hock:

After her death (c. 660) Winifred was interred at her abbey. In 1138, relics were carried to Shrewsbury to form the basis of an elaborate shrine.[1] The shrine and well became major pilgrimage goals in the Late Middle Ages

The well became very popular too.

The well is known as "the Lourdes of Wales" and is mentioned in an old rhyme as one of the Seven Wonders of Wales. It has been a pilgrimage site since the 7th century.[5]
After a shrine was established in Shrewsbury around 1138, it and St. Winefride's Well (from her name's Latin spelling) became important pilgrimage destinations.

Back to the Winifred article -

In the 2004 edition of the Roman Martyrology, Winifrid is listed under 2 November with the Latin name Winefrídae. She is listed as follows: 'At the spring located at Holywell in Wales, St Winefride the Virgin, who is outstanding in her witness as a nun'.[4] Thus Winifred is officially recognised by the Vatican as a person with a historical basis, who lived an exemplary religious life, but with no discussion of miracles which she may have performed or been healed by. As a first-millennium saint, she is recognised as a saint by popular acclaim, rather than ever being formally canonized.

[EGross]

While they may not have listed every criminal (well, they did note the most nortorious ones), there is no record that they had ever had a tradition to release a Jewish prisoner on Passover, and the Christian texts calls it a normal thing. The Jews make no mention of such a thing ever happening (they do list the horrible things that Pilate did), nor do the Romans who finally called him in and took him to task for the troubles that he was making.

"You want Wahjew weleased? Alwight! Release Wahjew!"

[Confused Ape]

While they may not have listed every criminal (well, they did note the most nortorious ones), there is no record that they had ever had a tradition to release a Jewish prisoner on Passover, and the Christian texts calls it a normal thing. The Jews make no mention of such a thing ever happening (they do list the horrible things that Pilate did), nor do the Romans who finally called him in and took him to task for the troubles that he was making.

That story was obviously made up to put the blame for Jesus's execution on the Jews.

Jewish Deicide

Jewish deicide is a belief that places the responsibility for the death of Jesus on the Jewish people as a whole. This deicide accusation is expressed in the ethnoreligious slur "Christ-killer." As a part of the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965), the Roman Catholic Church under Pope Paul VI issued a declaration which repudiated the belief in the collective Jewish guilt for the crucifixion of Jesus.

[EGross]

Well,l they don't call it "The Passion" for nothing (rile up their passions)