Dawkins blasts segregation on twitter.

[Esquilax]

Lets sort out our own flock - the UK not just blame these problems on other minority groups: that's just demonisation not an honest and sincere plight for human justice and equality

I would respectfully disagree on this point: we all need outside influences, even if they're condemnatory. At every conceivable scale, too: families need the voice of the community that needs the voice of the state that needs the voice of the nation that needs the voice of the world. Leaving a group to "sort out its own flock" leads to sort of an echo chamber deal.

I agree that the issue at hand is sexism and not the muslim people, but if the muslim religion or the adherents of it advocate sexist practices then that's a problem. The people aren't the issue: the religion is. And that religion needs outside pressure of voices like Dawkins in order to change for the better; self governance tends to breed corruption, especially in religious situations where those in power can spin that corruption as divine edict.

[Dawud]

Dawkins makes you think lthat statements like - let's sort out our own flock means 'Muslims do Muslims Atheists do Atheists etc.'

The truth is that we don't need to focus on 'religion as the root of all evil' - we need to, as one community, root out sexism. It might be an unquestioned aspect of your faith that 'Islam or religions must be sexist' but to be honest this program of targeting religions just doesn't cut the mustard because really there are plenty of men and women - Muslim and Atheist - who know the religion intimately and see clearly that women can and do flourish in the religion of Islam. When Muslim women are actually listened to - instead if having silly opinions foisted upon them - there is not this grim picture of oppression that is assumed. Belief in God is not something that nessecitates abuse if females: as the many Muslim charities aiming to help eradicate domestic violence and support it's victims testify. These are done in the name of God - even if some people wish to say that they are not Muslims cos they are helping women.

Islam may be an alternative lifestyle but it just doesn't fit that you try to change the lifestyle as a whole to stop a problem within some members. Some may assume due to prejudgment that it is a particularly bad problem in the Muslim community (I expect that this is baseless) but surely the focus should be on stopping sexist practice.

The hijab is a great example - if a non-Muslim feminist wants to cover her sexuality in public this is seen as a free choice - no questions. But it is a Muslim female then automatically prejudging people foist on to her that it was a forced thing and that it is perpetuating sexism. The reality is that Muslim women wear the headscarf for a myriad of reasons - even frequently against their parents wishes - but this never gets accross.

My wife wears it from time to time - she says "in a bid to 'beat the system' and not subscribe to the pressures that this society puts on people." Think she's a liar? You've not based that on my wife but only your prejudgment.

The problem is that this free choice to adopt a certain form of dress (for cultural, aesthetic, feminist reasons - or even through just laziness) gets lost in a false story that Muslim women are weak. They are not - I've had the privelage to work alongside plenty who are inspirational females and the massive luck to be married to a strong and successful career minded woman - also a Muslim. Unfortunately this reality is hidden from view by mass media or people's lack of true engagement with Muslim women.

1 in 4 women in the UK are a victim of domestic abuse - would clearing the UK of religion solve this problem? Or would engaging with these women to see what should be done be a better answer?

Those who work with domestic abuse victims don't see eradication of religion as a solution to the real problem of this situation. Nor do most victims...

Let's look after our flock which is our diverse community

The problem is not a religious phenomenon.

Lets also not get sidetracked by trying to paint a religion as sexist when tackling these problems - those who are in the know about these things see that religion is something that can help in the struggle against domestic violence.

To assume that domestic violence is less prevalent in atheist households would be dangerous and if you believe it then lets find some evidence - instead of applying ill researched religious ideas onto a very real human crisis.

As a Muslim I put out my hand and say - let's tackle this together.

[Esquilax]

The truth is that we don't need to focus on 'religion as the root of all evil' - we need to, as one community, root out sexism. It might be an unquestioned aspect of your faith that 'Islam or religions must be sexist' but to be honest this program of targeting religions just doesn't cut the mustard because really there are plenty of men and women - Muslim and Atheist - who know the religion intimately and see clearly that women can and do flourish in the religion of Islam. When Muslim women are actually listened to - instead if having silly opinions foisted upon them - there is not this grim picture of oppression that is assumed. Belief in God is not something that nessecitates abuse if females: as the many Muslim charities aiming to help eradicate domestic violence and support it's victims testify. These are done in the name of God - even if some people wish to say that they are not Muslims cos they are helping women.

Hmm...

... I agree, but...

I think that saying "religion is the root of all evil" isn't useful too, and in fact that's looking at it backwards. Evil is the root of evil, but to say religion doesn't have a hand in allowing people to justify evil actions or concepts is to miss a very important target that does need to take some fire itself.

Sexism is the problem here, but I'm not going to privilege religion to the point where it can't be criticized when it allows sexism to be justified. If I were just some guy on the street saying women should be servants of their husbands you'd call me a sexist dickhole, but if I did it while wearing any kind garment of religious authority, suddenly it's just expressing my beliefs, and therefore fine. I disagree with that: sexism is sexism even if it's expressed in a church.

I'm not going to stand here and tell you that religion needs to be destroyed, because I'm absolutely sure there are religious people out there who aren't dead set on intruding into the lives of everyone else with their faith, but all things need to change with the times and with new information. The problem with just saying "sexism is the problem, not religion!" is that it puts religious doctrine on a pedestal where it can't ever be changed, even when there are parts of it that do encourage sexism and misogyny.

Well, actually, religion might not be the problem, but it's sure as hell a hearty contributor to it, and don't you find that a little fucked up? Or a lot fucked up? The best way to stop sexist practices is to remove the justification for those practices, whether the source of that justification is supposedly divine or not.

Sometimes, religious tolerance needs to take a backseat so the rest of society can correct an immoral behavior, because as much as religions like to consider themselves the source of morality, the truth is that society is often the thing that holds certain religious people back from their religiously prescribed immorality.

I congratulate you for not being sexist, but that doesn't automatically mean your beliefs are untouchable.

As a Muslim I put out my hand and say - let's tackle this together.

Sounds good. Just so long as that hand isn't also shielding certain embarrassing parts of your holy books in doing so.

[Dawud]

Very eloquent!

I am most impressed and so happy to hear such a sophisticated and balanced voice!

Really made me happy