free will paradox

[fr0d0]

So how did I lie there? Yeah right. Your agenda betrays you.

[Mystical]

So sorry I'm late back onto this thread. I have no idea why I missed it. Maybe I was living or something. Who knows. Credit to missluckie26 anyway for pointing my mistake out.

I recall your posting in other threads just fine at the time, so I doubt you were just 'living'.
Just sayin.

I was not a JH or a Mormon. I grew up bouncing cities, states, and Christian churches. I've been to methodists, baptists, lutherans, southern baptists, catholics (once), but for the most part my parents stuck with christian churches without such titles, based on the level of spirituality that the pastor had. That said, my parents did end up at some extreme churches when I was young that made them conclude not to stick to a particular denomination for good reason; one church ending in suicide after they left, another they left because the pastor boasted and propagated child molestation. We even went to Ted Haggards' church when he was hatin on the gays. From those experiences my father kept with him the extreme view on the bible, and to this day believes women should not own land or hold office and are the reason the country is going to hell in a hand basket along with the fact that gays, muslims, and removal of religion are also contributing to the the world going to hell. He absolutely cannot contain his excitement for the End of Times.
My mother on the other hand takes care of the purest innocent of humans on this planet for nothing in return, she's even too tired in her good works to go to church anymore.

Thanks. Interesting.

Honestly... I think your family, as you describe them, are less Christian than any of the atheists I've met here. These people are shining examples of virtue in comparison. Most of them also have a better understanding of the bible. And that's those that have never experienced it.

You might not like it, but it's demonstrably true.

Demonstrate how this is true then.

Yeah that's secular morality. Proof of the God given bit.

It is not proof of the 'god given bit'. It is proof that morality is a staged process, initiating in the simplest of animals, and moving up the chain with the progression of consciousness.
A mouse is conscious if another one is caught in the mouse trap and will be upset. But if the other mouse is starving, it's not going to go give up it's food source for the sake of the other. A chimp, on the other hand, will. Humans, surprisingly often, choose not to.

It says in your anger don't sin. Not, if you're angry you're not sinning.

Basic 101. Jesus, in his anger, turned over the tables in anger. Anger isn't bad. Holding a grudge is bad.

"In your anger don't sin" ... in your innocent act (anger), don't sin (let that anger lead to what is bad - holding a grudge).

Basic 101. Jesus, in his anger, crafted a barbed whip and whipped those people. Oh and turned the tables over. He was so angry he made a weapon with which to reprimand them. That means he didn't do this in "I see it and it made me angry so I got upset.". He had premeditated anger which I would consider, a grudge.

Where in the Bible does it say god is perfect? Just curious. Or in a dictionary under perfection, where there is god = perfection?

From a quick google:

Deuteronomy 32:4 The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.
Psalm 18:30 This God—his way is perfect; the word of the Lord proves true; he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
Matthew 5:48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Here are verses that I see as directly contrasting gods' actions that are described by this one issue alone.

“I the Lord do not change” (Malachi 3:6a)

“You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell” (Psalm 5:4).

“When you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe” (1 Thessalonians 2:13b).

I'm sorry those seem to support what I'm saying

Did you even watch this? No. Try again. It's there.. the point is there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...x7irFN2gdI

Can't you see that I see you as being hypocritical and illogical yourself? That god cannot be perfect if he commits imperfect acts and is a hypocrite for judging us to hell for qualities he himself has shown? Before you say the typical, who are you to judge god BS please take a minute to consider that I am not indeed here to slam your beliefs. I'm here to talk to you about your beliefs. I'm not here talking to you to debate you and have fun with the word war you're ensuing. I dislike it highly, actually. I'm literally here to find out what is keeping you faithful and why, and all you can do is tell me I'm perverse and bastardising your bible.

I see no argument from you. Just the empty and groundless accusations reapeated without support. I've discussed this many times with atheists over a few years now, and none come up with any rational objection.
God does not commit imperfect acts
God does not show imperfection

Woof that's quite the burden of proof you put on me, there's just so much... I'll have to follow up post on that one

Be a darling and point your position out for me please, in detail?
Also, please translate for me this statement: You're hung up on what is to you a taboo langueage. Get over it.

Taboo language: if I use religious dogma/ express it in the words of religion or theology, you throw the toys out of the pram. If we talk in non theological terms you will say the opposite, because you're hung up on the religious language.

What the fuck are you talking about? Do you even know anymore what you meant by the statement?

Kyu is a materialist. He sees the world as only explainable by science. Almost violently so. that is what I referred to as his "box". It's a limitation and not an open minded perception of the world. Wilfully ignorant. A position of deep, unjustifiable faith.

Yeah I get what you're talking about with the box. 1. How is it using faith to observe what's around you, interpret that data, and form a conclusion and conclude against there being a god?
How is this willfully ignorant if all the evidence leads to there not being a god?
2.What do you mean by 'violently so'? Did he threaten you? Did he tell you that you're going to an eternal damnation for not believing in what he believes?

Lets take my example of one of my "hells" of a bastardized perversion of your own beliefs that I'm projecting onto you, and if you can please explain to me how I am perverting your beliefs feel free to educate me. Seriously.


So what is your problem with any of that?

Read. Think. Then post.

[fr0d0]

I'm mostly on my mobile. Segmented replies are incredibly difficult. If I read a reply, it gets marked as read, and I'll forget about it.

I will demonstrate why you go against Christianity to specific examples that you give. Self abuse is anti Christ.

Secular morality is what in Christian dogma is referred to as the god given base of morality.

In no way was Jesus act premeditated. He fashioned a whip was him creating a weapon on the spot. I know it's in your interest to bastardise the truth, but it doesn't help us.

I've watched the whole film years ago yeah. Loved it. It's right to get angry at god. Was god guilty? No.

Materialism is a faith position without possible knowledge. Unlike my faith position, which is based on knowledge. What materialists cannot know, they assume fits with their ideas that they see in material things. This has been thrashed out on the forum quite thoroughly recently.

Yes Kyu was on the edge of violence. He issued threats, and acted inappropriately astaff member here. He left in a Puff of smoke spitting hatred at me and other atheist members apparently lending me credence. He couldn't stand that he couldn't defend his position.

I did read. I didn't see your point. I asked for clarification.

[Esquilax]

I see no argument from you. Just the empty and groundless accusations reapeated without support. I've discussed this many times with atheists over a few years now, and none come up with any rational objection.
God does not commit imperfect acts
God does not show imperfection

Oh, Frodo... I think you'd need to demonstrate your god to exist before you can claim he acts at all, let alone that he does so perfectly. Try doing that, I think you'll find it somewhat problematic.

But let's assume for the sake of argument that you will in future do so; your god is still very much imperfect. At the very least, he's kind of dumb, getting wrapped up in a scheme that he himself opted to impose on mankind; are you seriously telling me that sacrificing himself/his son to himself in order to purge sin- something he allowed to enter into his creation to begin with, even though it was against his will- was the optimal way to go about that business? Really?

Let's talk about imperfect acts. I consider genocide to be a very imperfect act: god has committed or ordered several, including one near omnicide, if you subscribe to the notion that life was crafted exclusively on earth.

I consider slavery an imperfect act. God's cool with it, so long as you're not doing so to his chosen people. And while we're on that subject, I consider racism to be an imperfect act, but god's got a chosen people, apparently.

I could go on, but I think you get my point. Now, I know you may be tempted to argue that my considerations mean very little to god, that it was still perfect because those things were a part of his plan. Unfortunately for you, that puts you in a difficult position; you only have a single moral compass, after all. So let me ask you: do you think those things I've listed are immoral, and hence imperfect? If you say yes, then you're clearly just a mindless sheep, immersed in the worst kind of divine command indoctrination, and since you're being irrational in your desperation to defend the indefensible, I can safely stop debating you. If you say no... well, then you're just immoral, and I'll want to stop debating you.

So, which is it?

[fr0d0]

We're not talking existence of God though... we're talking about what the Bible says.

I know you could go on, and atheists always will. that doesn't mean that bull shit smells any less like bull shit. I'll let missluckie74 come up with her reasoning for her warped ideas of what the bible says, as I presume she has her own mind.

[Esquilax]

We're not talking existence of God though... we're talking about what the Bible says.

Except that the idea that the bible has any sort of cache as a dispensary of wisdom is predicated on it having the divine author it claims it does.

I know you could go on, and atheists always will. that doesn't mean that bull shit smells any less like bull shit. I'll let missluckie74 come up with her reasoning for her warped ideas of what the bible says, as I presume she has her own mind.

Ah, I see: rather than actually addressing my arguments, you'd rather just point out the fact that I had a lot of them. Very astute. Doesn't go far in terms of advancing your position, but at least it's an accurate observation. When I'm looking for examples of biblical immorality, my cup overfloweth.

While I'll agree that the ideas Luckie found in her religious experiences were warped, let's not for a moment pretend we don't know where they came from; modern christianity cultivates this idea that the things you don't like in the bible, the uncomfortable things, the politically incorrect ones, are just metaphor. Not meant literally. But other things are meant in a strict literal sense. And all of this from a book that's inerrant and perfect and the source of all morality everywhere.

Don't blame Luckie for the ideas she found, blame the religion that turned itself into a choose-your-own-adventure book rather than admit that parts of it were wrong.

[Mystical]

I'm on my mobile too, hey arent we the cool kids? Fr0d0 i asked why you think my beliefs were anti-christ. You butted in on another thread discrediting me, now I want the proof. Proof that my parents and pastors and counselors misread or misinterpreted the bible in any way. Cuz as I see it: it literally does say god can heal all things you need the faith like that woman who touched jesus' cloak, demons target christians weaknesses and are constantly battling you on a spiritual level, and it does say some masogynistic things that propagated an unhealthy marriage between my parents then put a clause in there that my mom would have to live her life alone simply because she couldnt handle my dads bible enforced mental illness (bipolar manic depressive) although my dad was quick to tell her if she remarried shes going to hell. i am sick and tired of this conversation honestly, unless you have any proof my family werent god fearing christians. point of fact: without biblical influence in my life I wholly believe things could be way better. or at the very least the errors in our lives wouldnt have had a scapegoat blanket religion to interfere with the facing of reality. And for the record, shaping a weapon by hand or miracle, is still premeditated assault.

[fr0d0]

Esq. Bullshit. We've discussed this reasonably before. I'm not about to play it out again with you acting the goof. Lie to yourself all you like. Don't expect me to entertain that.

Hello again missluckie74. I can't quite believe your credentials with you being so ignorant of the meaning of those simple verses. Can't quite, but actually do, having turned my back on it myself once. You won't see what you don't want to see. that's often why freethinking is such a laughable claim when people are in such a state.

[Ryantology]

Esq. Bullshit. We've discussed this reasonably before. I'm not about to play it out again with you acting the goof. Lie to yourself all you like. Don't expect me to entertain that.

How is it bullshit when that is precisely how the vast majority of mainstream Christians treat the Bible?

[Esquilax]

Esq. Bullshit. We've discussed this reasonably before. I'm not about to play it out again with you acting the goof. Lie to yourself all you like. Don't expect me to entertain that.

Hey, you wanna call bullshit, by all means. Just, you know, make sure you're doing it on the right person. I can't be blamed for the bullshit the followers of your religion pull.

If you're insistent on keeping the focus on me, then you'll need to explain why there are thousands of denominations of your church that, despite following the same holy book, all have different interpretations of it. You'll have to explain to me why you yourself have a different interpretation when compared to other christians on this board. I know you've given your reasoning with regards to Luckie's family, but isn't that just another example of what I'm talking about?

I've met catholics, protestants, baptists, and a bunch of other shades of christianity. Funny thing, they were all convinced that theirs was the correct interpretation of the bible. None of them secretly confided in me that Frodo had the correct reading of the good book, and that they were following the wrong one out of spite.

To call what I said bullshit would be to ignore large swathes of reality. Then again, this is not entirely unusual, for a theist...