Morality in dogs? Morality Learned?

[The Reality Salesman01]

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the tyranny of wick inequities of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children...AND I WILL STRIKE DOWN UPON THE WITH GREAT VENGEANCE AND FUUUURIOUS ANGER, those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers, and you WILL KNOW that MY NAME IS THE LORD, when I lay my VENGENCE upon thee!!!!

[Whateverist]

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the tyranny of wick inequities of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children...AND I WILL STRIKE DOWN UPON THE WITH GREAT VENGEANCE AND FUUUURIOUS ANGER, those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers, and you WILL KNOW that MY NAME IS THE LORD, when I lay my VENGENCE upon thee!!!!

Feel better now?

[The Reality Salesman01]

Sigh...no

[Godscreated]

Domesticated dogs have retained their pack motivations and the hierarchy of the pack, probably more things also, but those two are what we as dog trainers key on.
The first thing I teach and I start at eight weeks is for the pup to give kisses. Pups lick each other and mom to identify and socialize. So putting a pup up to your face will bring the tongue into action, then it's a simple matter of saying kiss, kiss, kiss, then you pull the pup away and rub it's head and tell it good name goes here. In just a couple of days it will give a kiss when you say kiss before putting the pup close to your face. Yep you can hold the pup at arms length and have the pup looking more like a snake with it's little tongue going like crazy. In just a few days the pup will understand what your relationship with it is, master and subordinate and you're on your way to training a pup much easier. Of coarse we would rather say alpha and subordinate. We have just used a social status set up with in the pack to show the pup how is who, and this eight to ten week old has not thought through anything, this is instinctual behavior.
As a dog continues to mature it will obey due to a pack mentality, but also the pack mentality demands that most dogs male or female test the ones above it, it is a desired trait for the pack, the alpha will need to be replaced at sometime. Dogs being domesticated have learned to bond with humans in a different way than they do within the pack. it's probably due to the fact that man supplies all the needs of the subordinate dog, where in the pack the subordinate does a lot of work to supply food and protection for the pack.
With all this said do I think dogs show morals, well I've seen my personal dogs act more human than some people I've met, but all in all I believe it still all comes from the social aspects of the pack. When you've helped train protection dogs you see a totally different side of a dog and that in itself has one considering whether a dog even cares about morals. Pleasing the pack leader may be what drives them more than anything else. Hope this makes sense and helps in some way.

[Whateverist]

Domesticated dogs have retained their pack motivations and the hierarchy of the pack, probably more things also, but those two are what we as dog trainers key on.

Pretty much what I think too. I wonder if you would agree with me that dogs do feel genuine affection which goes beyond submission? Power based interactions are best understood as you say. But then I do think they have a range of feeling which greatly overlaps our own. They can feel anger and happy and silly and indignant and jealous as well as affection. They can also act heroically and altruistically in the purist, unselfconscious ways.

We are always cautioned against anthropomorphizing and I agree that we shouldn't assume too much. But I think Occam's razor actually cuts in favor of thinking that our emotions and feelings wouldn't be worlds apart from that of every other mammal which in turn is world's apart from that of every other species. Same with our taste sensations and color perception. Perhaps every animal has a unique taste and color experience but I seriously doubt it.

[Minimalist]

I like dogs better than most people.

[Whateverist]

Dogs are a hell of a lot easier to like than most of us.

[Godscreated]

Domesticated dogs have retained their pack motivations and the hierarchy of the pack, probably more things also, but those two are what we as dog trainers key on.

Pretty much what I think too. I wonder if you would agree with me that dogs do feel genuine affection which goes beyond submission? Power based interactions are best understood as you say. But then I do think they have a range of feeling which greatly overlaps our own. They can feel anger and happy and silly and indignant and jealous as well as affection. They can also act heroically and altruistically in the purist, unselfconscious ways.

We are always cautioned against anthropomorphizing and I agree that we shouldn't assume too much. But I think Occam's razor actually cuts in favor of thinking that our emotions and feelings wouldn't be worlds apart from that of every other mammal which in turn is world's apart from that of every other species. Same with our taste sensations and color perception. Perhaps every animal has a unique taste and color experience but I seriously doubt it.

Yes I agree that dogs do connect emotionally with people, even to a greater degree than other animals. They understand we are not dogs, just as cats, cows, horses, pigs and ect. understand we are not of their species. I do believe that dogs can act heroically and unselfishly, but I believe this comes more from the pack mentality and enhanced by domestication. We need to remember those who came before us and domesticated the dog selected for these traits, thus we continue to enhance and strengthen pleasing traits in the dog. What I find most interesting about dogs is the variety and not just physically but mentally as well, I know of no other species that varies as much and yet can still breed.
You can't live with Rottweilers for 30 years and not be impressed at the human traits they seem to have, though I do believe we as humans tag dogs with more human traits than they actually have. I also believe that dogs are equally,if not more intelligent than apes. I say this only from what I've seen on programs about apes and their intelligence. I've seen the trainers of these apes actually use tricks that make the apes look smarter to those with untrained eye, I know this because I use them to impress people with my dogs. I've seen apes trained with supposed sign language, yet I've not seen one ape that could identify sign language as well as some of my Rotts. Also my Rotts learn English and German and so will start them on Dutch. Also my Rotts can do some commands from spelling, at this point it's very simple but soon I hope to expand this ability if possible. I guess you can see I enjoy exploring the abilities of a dog's brain.

[pocaracas]

Yes I agree that dogs do connect emotionally with people, even to a greater degree than other animals. They understand we are not dogs, just as cats, cows, horses, pigs and ect. understand we are not of their species.

are you sure?



just messin' with you!

[Sal]

IDK what would be moral for a dog. They do seem fiercely loyal, and will do acts I deem immoral if trained to; like "attack" dogs are.

They definitely don't have the same level of abstraction about morality that a grown human has, but I do think they have compassion and empathy because they're social creatures. I can't remember where I read it, but all social creatures - even insects - display empathy and and a level of compassion, all the way from ants to humans.

But what do we mean when we use the word "empathy"? We have a tendency, as already pointed out, to anthropomorphize behavior of other animals to our own. I think this is misguided. For example ants, because they don't have the same level of abstraction that we have, can be considered wholly robotic in their behavior when they go out of their way to rescue other ants (yes, they have evolved rescuers), but do these rescue ants just follow an instinctual pattern, or do they really have a concern for the ants they're rescuing?