"I'll pray for you."

[Walking Void]

I do not find it to be much of an assertion to say that prayer is not consistent. It is rather a conclusion. A conclusion that finds no consistency in the results that prayer brings or "supposedly brings" is an empty experiment, a lab test that succeeded in not proving the hypothesis. A bare assertion would be saying "yes, there is consistency", even after experiments have not shown there to be any pattern. So no, saying that prayer is not consistent is not a bare assertion, but a conclusion that found nothing that was being looked for.

If You guys want, there are multiple reports on testing prayer, here is 1:

http://www.abelard.org/galton/galton.htm

And if You do not trust me, go ahead, do not trust me. I was a christian for 17 years and not once during a prayer of any kind did a result prosper as a calculated effect directly from prayer: the cause.

Superstition is evil.

"su·per·sti·tion /ˌso opərˈstiSHən/

Noun 1. Excessively credulous belief in and reverence for supernatural beings. 2. A widely held but unjustified belief in supernatural causation leading to certain consequences of an action or event, or a practice..."

"superstition [ soo-per-stish-uhn ]

noun 1. a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge, in or of the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance, occurrence, proceeding, or the like. 2. a system or collection of such beliefs. 3. a custom or act based on such a belief."

[Zarith]

Testing just proves that those things aren't supernatural. They never were. Religion teaches against such falsities. Superstition is evil. Supernatural, by definition is untestable. Think about it.

Any change to the natural world would appear to have natural causes. Without fail. Otherwise the nature of God would be false.
Likewise the likelyhood of prayer being successful. With the massive possible permutations in any given scenario, you simply cannot, as expanded upon earlier, predict anything given your complete lack of ability to do so.

Prayer for healing of the sick is answered exactly the same as any other prayer: as God wills it. God will hear your prayer. You have to accept the answer. Never ever are you given the right to change anything without Gods involvement. I find such a suggestion absurd in the extreme.

I dislike arguing from the dictionary, but you are using your own definition of the word 'supernatural', and dressing up bare assertions in appeals to "the nature of God".

Oxford

adjective
(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature:
a supernatural being

Merriam Webster

Definition of SUPERNATURAL
1
: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
2
a : departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature
b : attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit)

Cambridge

(of something’s cause or existence) not able to be explained by the laws of science:
From the center of the tree, a supernatural light began to glow.

None of these definitions require or imply that the event in question be untestable, unobservable, totally outside of the natural world, or anything of the sort. Rather, they say something about an event's causes.

Just as an example, by all three of these definitions, the transfiguration of Jesus would be a supernatural event, being an event that (it is claimed) took place in the natural world, but had causes existing outside of the natural world. Do you believe that this event happened? Do you have a naturalistic theory as to what happened?

You still haven't answered the important question. Do we have reason to believe that praying for a particular event in the natural world makes it more likely that this event will happen?

[Donutblade]

Happens most of the time. Im not bothered about it. They sometimes insist me to pray for a while before i go to give an exam, etc. I just do it without hesitation, atleast they'll be relieved. I say that follow what you want to follow, but sometimes you have to make compromises to keep people happy and they arent big ones.

[k2490]

I get it all the time. I often think to myself when someone tells me that is..and what exactly is that going to do?

They think there helping,and if they feel all warm and fuzzy inside that's fine...but it has no relevance to me.

I agree with this. I've lost close family members in the recent last including my brother, and now my dad has terminal cancer so will die in the next few months.

Naturally a few people will say 'you're in my prayers', but really, that doesn't mean a thing to me. Why not donate some money to cancer research or Macmillan cancer nurses? I know for a fact that many of the people who have given me the prayer spiel haven't done anything beyond clasp their hands together.

And besides, I'm not egotistical enough to think that my plight would warrant the attention of a big dude in the sky. There are tens of millions of people in much worse a position than I am. Why would I suddenly be the person who gets prayers answered? And which god would be the one supposedly helping out?

Anyway, its all Irrelevant to me. If people feel happy thinking they're doing something then they can pray 24 hours a day if they want. It's not going to change the outcome.

I'm so sorry about your father and your other losses
I know I've had some rough times and when people say they'll pray it makes me go to what you were saying donating to cancer research do something. Get out and make a safe place for troubled youth,or give money to those that are in need. Or just open up their damn ears and listen..honestly.

[thesummerqueen]

Rhythm, I'm going to pray you realize that bourbon is only good in juleps and little else, and certainly doesn't replace a good scotch.

[Esquilax]

Testing just proves that those things aren't supernatural. They never were. Religion teaches against such falsities. Superstition is evil. Supernatural, by definition is untestable. Think about it.

You seem to think that this is some magical conversation stopper. You seem to think this somehow justifies your belief in the efficacy of prayer. But if we can't say that it doesn't work, then you have exactly the same lack of reason for saying it does. And there's certainly no reason for us to take you are your word, or take anyone else at theirs, because all you've said is that your version of prayer is completely unproveable, and therefore cannot be proved to work.

Hell, given these provisos, you can't even state anything about prayer to be true, so everything you've said is just speculation anyway. You're hardly proving your position, you're just placing it all out of anyone's reach, as though that validates your assumptions.

[Jackalope]

Prayers are always answered according to Gods will. 100% consistently.

And this differs from gods will in the absence of prayer precisely how?

[fr0d0]

I dislike arguing from the dictionary, but you are using your own definition of the word 'supernatural', and dressing up bare assertions in appeals to "the nature of God".

You have got to be kidding me! Those dictionary definitions back up exactly what I'm saying.

And the nature of God is well known. I could justifiably assume you should be aquatinted with that. If you're meaning bare as in unproven naturally, then that would be absurd of course.

---

Just as an example, by all three of these definitions, the transfiguration of Jesus would be a supernatural event, being an event that (it is claimed) took place in the natural world, but had causes existing outside of the natural world. Do you believe that this event happened? Do you have a naturalistic theory as to what happened?

You still haven't answered the important question. Do we have reason to believe that praying for a particular event in the natural world makes it more likely that this event will happen?

"Believe" I'd the key word there. We cannot prove anything. Why wouldn't you, for example, assume that Mary got pregnant the usual way, and that Jesus was an ordinary bloke? Would you assume that the 3 guys with Jesus on the mountain were hallucinating? They'd had a feast the night before and were still a bit drunk? Jesus had the sun behind him so his clothes glowed. Their eyes we're still bleary so they had double vision? They would have no idea what Moses and Elijah looked like, so how could they name them? The natural explanations are endless. Never ever in any miracles mentioned in the bible could miracles not also have a naturalistic explanation. How do you explain skeptic eye witnesses? Are they lying? Or do they confirm what the bible continually asserts: that you have to believe?

I believe I did answer the question, but let me say it again: We have reason to believe that prayer is answered if we first believe that what the bible says is true. Could we prove that independently from faith: not if supernatural means what those dictionary definitions say that it means.

---

You seem to think that this is some magical conversation stopper. You seem to think this somehow justifies your belief in the efficacy of prayer.

I think no such thing. The undeniable logic is elsewhere, I've listed them in my three points.

I'm completely with you that naturalistic explanations should be adhered to.

---

Prayers are always answered according to Gods will. 100% consistently.

And this differs from gods will in the absence of prayer precisely how?

If supernatural exists then you shouldn't be able to tell.

[Cyberman]

Anyone had a go at my experiment yet?

Just wondered how you were getting on.

[fr0d0]

I just have a problem with the testing bit stimbo. Can I borrow your supernatural detection device please?

My bullshit detector is broken I think. it's constantly maxxed out!