The Quran - A Miracle

[Captain Colostomy]

I was going to read that, but dayum. Nevermind.

I'm sure my earlier post covers it.

[ThatMuslimGuy2]

I was going to read that, but dayum. Nevermind.

I'm sure my earlier post covers it.

I recommend you read it. Your earlier post doesnt "cover it".

[Fidel_Castronaut]

What currently unknown scientific discoveries does the Koran predict?

So, no hover cars, and no answer to the above question?

Figures.

[Minimalist]

I'm sure you are very impressed with yourself and your fucking god but frankly there seems to be a zillion ways to translate this gibberish of yours.

051.047
YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

Don't feel bad. We have xtian assholes who are just as willing as you to tamper with a word here or there when it suits their purpose to do so.

[Captain Colostomy]

I was going to read that, but dayum. Nevermind.

I'm sure my earlier post covers it.

I recommend you read it. Your earlier post doesnt "cover it".

It does if I say so.

(See...thats what I often seem to get from you and your theistic co-horts. Dismissal with prejudice. I kinda like!)

[pocaracas]

I'm not going to comment on the wall of text you pasted onto here after this reply... sorry for that, it's just... too much of arabic and translations that need to be re-done... it all sounds too much of a stretch, just for an idea of an expanding... heaven? realm? world?

Apart from what's already been told...
How did Muslims interpret these passages before the 20th century?

A brilliant question.

The hallmark of a real thinker!

(lamūsi’ūna) What does it mean?
لموسعون (lamūsi’ūna) contains the emphatic prefix lām. The prefixed particle lām is usually translated as "surely" or "indeed" and is used to add emphasis. So the word in question really is موسعون (mūsi’ūna).

Whenever I see such words as "truly", "verily", "surely".... I think someone is trying hard to make me accept something just because that someone says so.... and that's no way to convince me of anything.
Actually, that's the express way to prevent me from becoming convinced.
So, one negative point there, and a red flag raised.

Now the “ūna” or “oona” in the Arabic language represents a plural. The plural aspect is to denote the majesty and power of god. So the plurality is not in question. What is in question is the word موسع (mūsi)

موسع (mūsi). So what does this mean? Well موسع (mūsi) is one who is engaged in the act of أوسع (Awsa'). So what does أوسع(Awsa') mean?

The classical dictionary Lisan Al-Arab (13th century) says the following:



In the explanation of the word it is interesting to note that the author actually quotes the verse in question in his explanation. In the section highlighted the author states that the form 2 verb (Red Line) has the same meaning as the verb used in the verse (Blue Line)- to expand something.

Ok, apart from a lot of word translating details which don't matter to me... something is being expanded.
What could it be?...

In short the author states that the verb وسع (to expand something) has the same meaning as the verb أوسع.

So from Lisan Al-Arab we have come to learn that the verb أوسع (Awsa') means to expand. And موسع (mūsi) is the one who is engaged in أوسع (Awsa') – The Expander.
The one who engages in expanding.

Ok, someone expands whatever it is that that person expands...
Still nothing on what is being expanded...

Now let us look at some Classical Commentaries of the Quran to see if they support the translation of “the expanding Universe”.

Tafsir Al-Zamakhshari (Died in the 11 Century A.D)



In the commentary of this verse the Scholar gives the following three meanings for the word موسعون (mūsi’ūna):

The Encomposer of the Heavens (Physical and Knowledge)
The Provider (from the Heavens)
The Expander

Still going on about someone expanding... well, now you mention heavens.
Heaven, as in the realm of souls?
So, that would be the metaphysical place outside of our Universe, right?
That one can expand, contract, or do whatever anyone likes...

Tafsir Muqatel ibn Solaiman (767 A.D)

means: we are able to expand it as we want.

تفسير مقاتل بن سليمان/ مقاتل بن سليمان (ت 150 هـ
{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } [آية: 47] يعني نحن قادرون على أن نوسعها كما نريد

We can expand the heaven as we want.... sounds about right.... for it is a mythical place.

Tafsir Al Tabarani (970 A.D)

means :we expand the heaven in every direction.

Still the same sort of thing.

تفسير التفسير الكبير / للإمام الطبراني (ت 360 ـ)

{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ }؛ في السَّماء على الأرضِ في كلِّ جهاتٍ

Tafsir Bahr Alolum (985 A.D)

means: we are able to expand it as we will.

Still the same, we can expand the mythical place as we want.

(فسير بحر العلوم/ السمرقندي

{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } يعني نحن قادرون على أن نوسعها كما نريد

Tafsir Alnukat Waloyon (1058 A.D)

means : we are able to make the heaven expanding more that it is already expanded.

We, who??
Oh, mankind... the more souls, the larger it must be, I guess.

تفسير النكت والعيون/ الماوردي (ت 450 ه)
الثاني: لموسعون السماء، قاله ابن زيد.

الثالث: لقادرون على الاتساع بأكثر من اتساع السماء.


Tafsir Al-Baidawi (Died 1286)

وَٱلسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَـٰهَا بِأَيْدٍ, بقوة. { وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } لقادرون من الوسع بمعنى الطاقة والموسع القادر على الإنفاق. أو { لَمُوسِعُونَ } السماء أو ما بينها وبين الأرض أو الرزق

The translation of the part highlighted in blue reads,

"{lamūsi’ūna } means expanding the sky (heavens) or what is between it and the earth or the (expanding of) sustenance."

One single word means all that? awesome language!
Is it sky or heavens, or what's between the earth and the sky, or what's between the earth and the heaven...
or is it sustenance?

What is the context of that word?

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?...&UserProfile=0

Tafsir alfayruz abadi (1414 A.D)

means : we are expanding it as we will.

Back on expanding something as humans want.

{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } لها ما نشاء

تفسير القرآن/ الفيروز آبادي (ت817

Tafsir Alqasemy (1913 A.D)

means: we are able to expand it, more than it is already expanded.

Like making pizza?

تفسير محاسن التأويل / محمد جمال الدين القاسمي (ت 1332هـ
{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } أي: لقادرون على الإيساع، كما أوسعنا بناءها

And many more.

Part of the miraculous nature of the Quran is that uses word(s) that have more than one meaning and all these meanings are intended. So in conclusion after looking at classical commentaries three meanings are given for the word موسعون (mūsi’ūna):

1. To encompass the heavens (Physically, Knowledge, Authority). This means that god encompasses it with his power and that he knows everything through his knowledge and has authority over it.
2. To provide for his creation. One who provides for his creation from the heavens. So physically, like the rain that comes down from the heavens. Or spiritually.
3. To physically expand. Meaning to continuously expand something or to make something vaster.


In summary Classical Linguists and Commentators of the Quran have understood for this verse to refer to the expanding of the Heavens. Tafsirs from the 8th century up to the 21st century have understood موسعون (mūsi’ūna) to mean expander or expanding.

Well, thank you for all that.
I see that classically, muslims have interpreted that it is the heavens that are expanding.... and are expanded by any person, as they see fit.
And the heavens are the mythological places where the dead souls reside, right?

How anyone leaps from that to "Universe"... is a bit beyond me... maybe it's in that long wall of text... maybe you could omit the arabic text, because no one cares about that.

Now ask yourself: if this god is so perfect, why does it impart knowledge in a specific language which was previously invented by humans?
And a very complex language, where a single word or sound can have tens of meanings... and you need to discern the correct meaning from context...
If the word has 2, maybe 3 meanings, then ok.... that can be done, provided the meaning are sufficiently disparate that you can't mistake one for the other.... but this arabic you're trying to show us... damn... one word, tons of meanings, all somewhat similar.
Too many ambiguities... not the best of languages to impart any kind of knowledge, if you ask me...

[ThatMuslimGuy2]

I'm sure you are very impressed with yourself and your fucking god but frankly there seems to be a zillion ways to translate this gibberish of yours.

051.047
YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

Don't feel bad. We have xtian assholes who are just as willing as you to tamper with a word here or there when it suits their purpose to do so.

Did you even read my previous post?

Common Contention 1

A common contention to the “Expanding Universe” in the Qur’an is to quote three popular translations – Yusuf Ali, Pickthall and Shakir- and say these only translated it as that God made the Heavens Vast. The Translations read:
Yusuf Ali:
[051:047] With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
Pickthall:
[051:047] We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
Shakir:
[051:047] And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

Although an honest contention – one I held until looking further into the topic- it is misplaced for the following reasons:

1.The Qur’an can never be translated 100% perfectly. Especially into English due to the vast differences in the Language. Each translation is a translators attempt to put across the meaning of the Quranic words used.
2. Naturally this can contain errors.
3. Or translations that do not fully grasp the language.
4. Also one word may have multiple meanings and it is hard to translate all the possible meanings encompassed in a word so a translator may discard some meanings.
5. Also Yusuf Ali, Pickthall and Shakir are not some “Golden Translations” that are 100% correct. Infact they do contain errors and sections where the translators haven’t grasped the original language. For example:


Allah says in Surah An-Naba’ verses 1-2:

سورة النبا بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم ٛــــ عم يتساءلون
‏ عن النبأ العظيم

Transliteration:
[078:001] AAamma yatasaaloona
[078:002] AAani alnnaba-i alAAatheemi

Interpretation and Meaning:

Saheeh International:

[078:001] About what are they asking one another?
[078:002] About the great news –

Yusuf Ali:
[078:001] Concerning what are they disputing?
[078:002] Concerning the Great News,

Dr. Munir Munshey
[078:001] What are they asking each other about?
[078:002] The awesome news (of the afterlife)?

Sher Ali:
[078:001] What do they question one another about ?
[078:002] About the mighty Event,

Shakir:
[078:001] Of what do they ask one another?
[078:002] About the great event,

Sale:
[078:001] Concerning what do the unbelievers ask questions of one another?
[078:002] Concerning the great news of the resurrection,

Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan:
[078:001] What are they asking (one another)?
[078:002] About the great news, (i.e. Islamic Monotheism, the Quran, which Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)brought and the Day of Resurrection, etc.),

Palmer:
[078:001] Of what do they ask each other?-
[078:002] Of the mighty information

Arberry:
[078:001] Of what do they question one another?
[078:002] Of the mighty tiding

Khalifa:
[078:001] What are they questioning?
[078:002] The great event.

Rodwell:
[078:001] Of what ask they of one another?
[078:002] Of the great NEWS.

We get the image of great or good news. But look how Pickthall translates the verse:

Pickthall:
[078:001] Whereof do they question one another ?
[078:002] (It is) of the awful tidings,

This is a crazy mistake! Pickthall translates the Arabic as awful tidings instead of good tidings. A huge error. Are the sceptics really pointing to a translation such as this which contains such grave errors as a “Golden Translation” - that translates the Quran 100% correct? It would be idiotic to.

6.They also contain translations that don’t fully grasp the language or have translated something poorly. Here is an example:

Allah says in Surah Al-Fil verse 3:

وارسل عليهم طيرا ابابيل

Transliteration:
[105:003] Waarsala AAalayhim tayran ababeela

Interpretation and Meaning:
Dr. Munir Munshey:
[105:003] He let loose upon them a large flock of birds,

Sher Ali:
[105:003] And HE sent against them swarm of birds,

Sale:
[105:003] and send against them flocks of birds,

Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan:
[105:003] And sent against them birds, in flocks,

Palmer:
[105:003] and send down on them birds in flocks,

Birds is clear correct translation. However lets how Pickthall translated it:

Pickthall:
[105:003] And send against them swarms of flying creatures,

Although this isn’t 100% erroneous it hasn’t really grasped the meaning of the Arabic.

If we are going to point to translations why don’t I just point to these translations?


AND IT IS We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it. [Muhammad Asad]

And the heaven with its regions, spheres and realms of space did We skillfully, powerfully and authoritatively construct and We are expanding the universe. [Al-Muntakhab]

And We constructed the universe using matter, and We will expand it. [Progressive Muslims]

And the heaven, We have constructed it mightily, and it is surely We Who have vast power, and keep expanding it. [Ali Ünal]

And it is We Who have built the Universe, and behold, We are steadily expanding it. [Shabbir Ahmed]

With Our power and prowess, We brought into being the universe. And indeed, We expand it (steadily)! [Dr. Munir Munshey]

And We built the heavenly universe with great might. And surely, We are expanding (this universe) more and more. [Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri]

And the heaven: We constructed it with (Our Own) hands; and surely We are indeed those Who make expansion and create vastness. [Dr. Kamal Omar]

We constructed the universe with power, and We are expanding it. [Talal A. Itani]

I (God) have created the universe myself and will continue to expand it [confirmation of the expansion theory of the universe after the Big Bang.] [Bijan Moeinian]

We constructed the sky with our hands, and we will continue to expand it. [Rashad Khalifa]

And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander. [Saheeh International]

And the sky was built by Us with might; and indeed We are the expanders. [Muhammad Taqi Usmani]

We have built the sky with might, and indeed it is We who are its expanders. [Ali Quli Qara'i]

And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and it is We that expand the vastness of space (or We are the expanders of it). [Hamid S. Aziz]

7. Finally as demonstrated above it is clear that موسعون (mūsi’ūna) can mean the expander or expanding.

The arabic word can mean the following:


1. To encompass the heavens (Physically, Knowledge, Authority). This means that god encompasses it with his power and that he knows everything through his knowledge and has authority over it.
2. To provide for his creation. One who provides for his creation from the heavens. So physically, like the rain that comes down from the heavens. Or spiritually.
3. To physically expand. Meaning to continuously expand something or to make something vaster.
4. To be rich.

[Doubting Thomas]

سورة النبا بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم ٛــــ عم يتساءلون
‏ عن النبأ العظيم

Why is it that Arabic people always have such bad handwriting? I can't even read this chicken scratch!

[ThatMuslimGuy2]

I'm not going to comment on the wall of text you pasted onto here after this reply... sorry for that, it's just... too much of arabic and translations that need to be re-done... it all sounds too much of a stretch, just for an idea of an expanding... heaven? realm? world?

A brilliant question.

The hallmark of a real thinker!

(lamūsi’ūna) What does it mean?
لموسعون (lamūsi’ūna) contains the emphatic prefix lām. The prefixed particle lām is usually translated as "surely" or "indeed" and is used to add emphasis. So the word in question really is موسعون (mūsi’ūna).

Whenever I see such words as "truly", "verily", "surely".... I think someone is trying hard to make me accept something just because that someone says so.... and that's no way to convince me of anything.
Actually, that's the express way to prevent me from becoming convinced.
So, one negative point there, and a red flag raised.

Now the “ūna” or “oona” in the Arabic language represents a plural. The plural aspect is to denote the majesty and power of god. So the plurality is not in question. What is in question is the word موسع (mūsi)

موسع (mūsi). So what does this mean? Well موسع (mūsi) is one who is engaged in the act of أوسع (Awsa'). So what does أوسع(Awsa') mean?

The classical dictionary Lisan Al-Arab (13th century) says the following:



In the explanation of the word it is interesting to note that the author actually quotes the verse in question in his explanation. In the section highlighted the author states that the form 2 verb (Red Line) has the same meaning as the verb used in the verse (Blue Line)- to expand something.

Ok, apart from a lot of word translating details which don't matter to me... something is being expanded.
What could it be?...

In short the author states that the verb وسع (to expand something) has the same meaning as the verb أوسع.

So from Lisan Al-Arab we have come to learn that the verb أوسع (Awsa') means to expand. And موسع (mūsi) is the one who is engaged in أوسع (Awsa') – The Expander.
The one who engages in expanding.

Ok, someone expands whatever it is that that person expands...
Still nothing on what is being expanded...

Now let us look at some Classical Commentaries of the Quran to see if they support the translation of “the expanding Universe”.

Tafsir Al-Zamakhshari (Died in the 11 Century A.D)



In the commentary of this verse the Scholar gives the following three meanings for the word موسعون (mūsi’ūna):

The Encomposer of the Heavens (Physical and Knowledge)
The Provider (from the Heavens)
The Expander

Still going on about someone expanding... well, now you mention heavens.
Heaven, as in the realm of souls?
So, that would be the metaphysical place outside of our Universe, right?
That one can expand, contract, or do whatever anyone likes...

Tafsir Muqatel ibn Solaiman (767 A.D)

means: we are able to expand it as we want.

تفسير مقاتل بن سليمان/ مقاتل بن سليمان (ت 150 هـ
{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } [آية: 47] يعني نحن قادرون على أن نوسعها كما نريد

We can expand the heaven as we want.... sounds about right.... for it is a mythical place.

Tafsir Al Tabarani (970 A.D)

means :we expand the heaven in every direction.

Still the same sort of thing.

تفسير التفسير الكبير / للإمام الطبراني (ت 360 ـ)

{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ }؛ في السَّماء على الأرضِ في كلِّ جهاتٍ

Tafsir Bahr Alolum (985 A.D)

means: we are able to expand it as we will.

Still the same, we can expand the mythical place as we want.

(فسير بحر العلوم/ السمرقندي

{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } يعني نحن قادرون على أن نوسعها كما نريد

Tafsir Alnukat Waloyon (1058 A.D)

means : we are able to make the heaven expanding more that it is already expanded.

We, who??
Oh, mankind... the more souls, the larger it must be, I guess.

تفسير النكت والعيون/ الماوردي (ت 450 ه)
الثاني: لموسعون السماء، قاله ابن زيد.

الثالث: لقادرون على الاتساع بأكثر من اتساع السماء.


Tafsir Al-Baidawi (Died 1286)

وَٱلسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَـٰهَا بِأَيْدٍ, بقوة. { وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } لقادرون من الوسع بمعنى الطاقة والموسع القادر على الإنفاق. أو { لَمُوسِعُونَ } السماء أو ما بينها وبين الأرض أو الرزق

The translation of the part highlighted in blue reads,

"{lamūsi’ūna } means expanding the sky (heavens) or what is between it and the earth or the (expanding of) sustenance."

One single word means all that? awesome language!
Is it sky or heavens, or what's between the earth and the sky, or what's between the earth and the heaven...
or is it sustenance?

What is the context of that word?

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?...&UserProfile=0

Tafsir alfayruz abadi (1414 A.D)

means : we are expanding it as we will.

Back on expanding something as humans want.

{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } لها ما نشاء

تفسير القرآن/ الفيروز آبادي (ت817

Tafsir Alqasemy (1913 A.D)

means: we are able to expand it, more than it is already expanded.

Like making pizza?

تفسير محاسن التأويل / محمد جمال الدين القاسمي (ت 1332هـ
{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } أي: لقادرون على الإيساع، كما أوسعنا بناءها

And many more.

Part of the miraculous nature of the Quran is that uses word(s) that have more than one meaning and all these meanings are intended. So in conclusion after looking at classical commentaries three meanings are given for the word موسعون (mūsi’ūna):

1. To encompass the heavens (Physically, Knowledge, Authority). This means that god encompasses it with his power and that he knows everything through his knowledge and has authority over it.
2. To provide for his creation. One who provides for his creation from the heavens. So physically, like the rain that comes down from the heavens. Or spiritually.
3. To physically expand. Meaning to continuously expand something or to make something vaster.


In summary Classical Linguists and Commentators of the Quran have understood for this verse to refer to the expanding of the Heavens. Tafsirs from the 8th century up to the 21st century have understood موسعون (mūsi’ūna) to mean expander or expanding.

Well, thank you for all that.
I see that classically, muslims have interpreted that it is the heavens that are expanding.... and are expanded by any person, as they see fit.
And the heavens are the mythological places where the dead souls reside, right?

How anyone leaps from that to "Universe"... is a bit beyond me... maybe it's in that long wall of text... maybe you could omit the arabic text, because no one cares about that.

Now ask yourself: if this god is so perfect, why does it impart knowledge in a specific language which was previously invented by humans?
And a very complex language, where a single word or sound can have tens of meanings... and you need to discern the correct meaning from context...
If the word has 2, maybe 3 meanings, then ok.... that can be done, provided the meaning are sufficiently disparate that you can't mistake one for the other.... but this arabic you're trying to show us... damn... one word, tons of meanings, all somewhat similar.
Too many ambiguities... not the best of languages to impart any kind of knowledge, if you ask me...

Sorry maybe I should clarify. The use in heavens in the Quran refers to the universe. The arabic is sammaa. It is Not heaven as where we go when we die. In the Quran thst is called jannah or paradise.

Why does the Quran use a language that has multiple meanings?

Part of the miraculous nature of the Quran is that uses word(s) that have more than one meaning and all these meanings are intended. So in conclusion after looking at classical commentaries three meanings are given for the word موسعون (mūsi’ūna):

1. To encompass the heavens (Physically, Knowledge, Authority). This means that god encompasses it with his power and that he knows everything through his knowledge and has authority over it.
2. To provide for his creation. One who provides for his creation from the heavens. So physically, like the rain that comes down from the heavens. Or spiritually.
3. To physically expand. Meaning to continuously expand something or to make something vaster
4. To be rich..

[pineapplebunnybounce]

Did you even read my previous post?

Common Contention 1

A common contention to the “Expanding Universe” in the Qur’an is to quote three popular translations – Yusuf Ali, Pickthall and Shakir- and say these only translated it as that God made the Heavens Vast. The Translations read:
Yusuf Ali:
[051:047] With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
Pickthall:
[051:047] We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
Shakir:
[051:047] And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

Although an honest contention – one I held until looking further into the topic- it is misplaced for the following reasons:

The Qur’an can never be translated 100% perfectly. Especially into English due to the vast differences in the Language. Each translation is a translators attempt to put across the meaning of the Quranic words used.
Naturally this can contain errors.
Or translations that do not fully grasp the language.
Also one word may have multiple meanings and it is hard to translate all the possible meanings encompassed in a word so a translator may discard some meanings.

That is a cop out. You cannot be a god and then reserve your book for only one group of people on earth.

1. To encompass the heavens (Physically, Knowledge, Authority). This means that god encompasses it with his power and that he knows everything through his knowledge and has authority over it.
2. To provide for his creation. One who provides for his creation from the heavens. So physically, like the rain that comes down from the heavens. Or spiritually.
3. To physically expand. Meaning to continuously expand something or to make something vaster.
4. To be rich.

So really, you only landed on "physically expand" AFTER we discovered the universe is expanding.

This kind of "multiple" meaning problems appear in old languages sometimes, especially when people are intentionally unclear about what they're talking about, that's not an excuse. That's an excuse for ancient people time travelling to present time.

Do you realize that you're asking people to believe a group of people who cannot properly express their ideas received revelation from some angel, based on what they wrote down? When we've established that the text cannot properly articulate these ideas to begin with?