anyone else here not pro life for the sake of being pro life?

[Fidel_Castronaut]

The claim that life has an intrinsic value, undiminished by circumstance, shouldn't be taken seriously? Really?

It's debatable.

Your handle includes one perception of (human) life that would reject notions of positive value or worth, no?

[Optimistic Mysanthrope]

But that wasn't your objection. You didn't question the assertion, you questioned his right to make that assertion.

That wasn't the goal post you just set one post back.

Only because we were getting away from the original point

However in this case, Given the provenance of the assertion, I can not feel even the faintest glimmer of respect for his theatrically emphatic claim to being taken seriously.

I feel a claim should stand or fall based on its own merit, rather than that of the person making the claim.

The claim that life has an intrinsic value, undiminished by circumstance, shouldn't be taken seriously? Really?

It's debatable.

Your handle includes one perception of (human) life that would reject notions of positive value or worth, no?

I do not have to like something in order to recognise that it has value :p

[GodsRevolt]

Again, comfort and pain are a yard stick. If it were not in the case of you christians, then you wouldn't care for your standard of living, churches wouldn't care to amass wealth, and one spectacularly sybritic Catholic Bishop wouldn't renovate his own official residence in Germany at a cost to his perishners of $50 million. But except amongst certain "captains of industry", christian adherents of the wealth gaspel, and the said bishop in Germany, comfort and pain are usually not the ONLY yard stick. Meaning of life therefore depends on a aggregate measure of which pain and comfort can become, but is not by necessity, a dominant part.
So it is up to those in pain to determine which yard sticks to measure the aggregate meaning of their lives, and how much those yard sticks say. Not you.

Who the fuck are you, beholden as you are to the religion that probably killed more of humanity against their expressed wishes than all others combined, to speak for humanity about how humanity works?

The first paragraph is filled with irrelevant facts. Just because someone believe one things and does another does not diminish the original belief. I believe that you should tell the truth, but if I lie does that diminish the fact that the truth should be told?

The second paragraph holds a fallacy. Just because the believers of a religion carried out immoral acts (which you failed to point out all of the good believers have done) and I am a member of that religion does not automatically make me immoral, nor does it make my point automatically dismissible.

If we could stay on topic -

I would like to add that human life has an intrinsic value that is not negated in anyway, shape, or form by the circumstances that life is put into. Another poster brought up Lou Gehrig's Diseas (ALS) but someone with this disease does not cease to be human. There is dignity, even the life of someone with this disease.

Is it important to defend the weak? Why?
Is it right to give a poor man the same respect as a rich man? Why?
Is it right to save a sick and dying person from danger the way you would save a well person? Why?

These philosophies stem from the idea that all human life has dignity. If you say that someone is uncomfortable and has the right to end their life you have to submit to the fact that life itself is less important than comfort.

I stubbed my toe twice in a day. Can I kill myself?
I can't stand being so embarrassed. Can I kill myself?
Those bullies will not leave me alone. Can I kill myself?

There is too much latitude on you "subjective morals" to contain the dignity of man. Life becomes worthless because no one can tell you what is an appropriate amount of pain or comfort. The natural end of your idea of "My life, My right to death," comes to its natural conclusion like a three year old demanding candy.

I am not rich. Can I kill myself?
I didn't get that promotion I wanted. Can I kill myself?
If you do not agree with me, love me, get me what I want, I am going to kill myself because I own my life and that is my right!

[Cato]

Anyone else involuntarily start humming the theme song from 'M.A.S.H.' while reading this thread?

[Psykhronic]

GR -

You can technically kill yourself over anything.

Personally, I tried after being taunted by voices and hallucinations for months - then finally the people in my head said suicide was an option and I tried to take it. That being said, I failed obviously, but others have successfully committed suicide over what is considered a normal life event (ending a relationship). But such a thing is indicative of a larger problem, perhaps a mental illness.

But seriously, we're all talking diseases and shit and you bring up stubbing your toe as a reason to kill yourself? There's a forest through those trees.

[Anomalocaris]

You can kill yourself for any reason you deem appropriate upon some reflection. I will not raise an eyebrow at the notion that your life is worth less to you, and therefore worth less in any term of significance, than the risk of suffering another stubbed toe.

The value of your life is the lesser of whatever net value you place on it, and the maximum cost you can get away with incurring on the society to keep you alive.

As to the notion of someone believing one thing and doing another, a believe is pure hot air if it is not both demonstrably actionable at a suitable scale, and demonstrably productive of the end which is used to justify it. The three examples you deemed irrelevant shows even those reasonably expected to hold And advance your sort of beliefs most fervently have not managed to show your beliefs to be actionable in any significant scale. So there is not even the question of your beliefs being productive of the ends used to justify it, much less whether those ends themselves are, upon final analysis, justifiable.

Go back to square one and don't presume to pester us from a make belief pulpit of bare assertions.

[c172]

Well, as a disabled person, I do feel like certain countries get a little too liberal with wanting to end our lives. But indeed, if somebody really is feeling too much actual physical pain to actually do anything productive, then assisted suicide should be legal. That said, I don't like how "Million Dollar Baby" was done.

I suffered a depressive bout on my birthday in 2007. I had a falling out with a group of four people that was important to me. It was just too much emotional trauma to endure, but when I realized that my jumping out of my window might give me a paralysis situation that was foreign to me, plus just plain embarrass me in front of family, after several hours, I abandoned my attempt for fear of survival.

I don't find suicide selfish, but if you were to survive and live with injuries your family would need to help you with, yes, that's selfish.

Plus, asmuchas I fervently believe in no God, we all could be wrong, so why rush into it.

[Mystical]

You can kill yourself for any reason you deem appropriate upon some reflection. I will not raise an eyebrow at the notion that your life is worth less to you, and therefore worth less in any term of significance, than the risk of suffering another stubbed toe.

You can, yes. But does that mean you should?

The value of your life is the lesser of whatever net value you place on it, and the maximum cost you can get away with incurring on the society to keep you alive.

Based on this little formula you've created, where do Downs syndrome patients rate in terms of worth to you? Most live in group homes funded by the state and they are fed clothed medicated treated and cared for by society as they cannot do any of these things themselves. They're jUst aware enough to know they're not right.

As to the notion of someone believing one thing and doing another, a believe is pure hot air if it is not both demonstrably actionable at a suitable scale, and demonstrably productive of the end which is used to justify it.

whoa could you rephrase that and dumb it down to my level?

The three examples you deemed irrelevant shows even those reasonably expected to hold And advance your sort of beliefs most fervently have not managed to show your beliefs to be actionable in any significant scale. So there is not even the question of your beliefs being productive of the ends used to justify it, much less whether those ends themselves are, upon final analysis, justifiable.

Go back to square one and don't presume to pester us from a make belief pulpit of bare assertions.

Did I miss the part where the equally valued opinion of a human being was skewed by religion in his/her case? Did they say "you can't commit suicide because its not your life its gods?"
Did I miss god spoutage or are you just that prejudicial that you can't have a reasonable conversation with a human being because they have a differing standpoint from yourself and hold that religious title (which they did not even bring to the table in this topic--you did)?

[Ben Davis]

So how do we feel about euthanasia?

I'm pro-choice on this one: overall, if an individual decides, of sound mind, that they want to die, there should be no legal barrier and in some situations, medical assistance should be available. The methods in the Benelux countries are probably the most well thought-through at the moment; plenty of education, social & psychological support and assessment before decisions are made.

In the UK, the biggest issue is the lack of support, both social & medical, which could conceivably prevent the types of depression which lead to suicide.

[kılıç_mehmet]

I'm not pro-life in the said sense, for I think that abortions are a must in the case of either life threatening pregnancies, or children with serious disabilities, why give birth to an unproductive burden on society, when you can simply be merciful on him/her, and also yourself?
But if abortions become a means of helping teen moms and other people with a lack of responsibility to easily get rid of the fruits of their stupid and irresponsible behavior, it becomes an incentive for people that further wish to live out an irresponsible life. Such people themselves are a burden on society, so they must be deprived of their "way out card".
Abortions should be only made available to married people.