Can love exist without hate?

[Mystic]

Sure he can create a world without evil. It's just which one is a better world, a world with evil, or a world without one. So far it's been asserted a world without evil is better than a world with evil but I haven't seen any reason why to conclude so.

[xr34p3rx]

evil? explain your question, its irrelevant to the topic...

Actually, you're wrong. Tor is referring to a common argument for atheism called the "problem of evil," which to the best of my knowledge, has never been convincingly counter-argued by anyone arguing for theism. The argument is most often framed in some way like this:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

That is a trilemma called the Epicurean paradox, because those words are from Epicurus, who by the way, was a very interesting philosopher, especially in his day.

yea i know, i understand the topic now, but thanks for the explanation

[My imaginary friend is GOD]

yea i know, i understand the topic now, but thanks for the explanation

Well, good, because it is a thing worth knowing about.

[xr34p3rx]

okay, explain the "problem" with evil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

well if god wanted to, yes, why did he chose not to? im not sure but evidence for that deity must be applied to logic for it to be even considered in a literal point of view, as for now its hypothetical and remains unknown.

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yea i know, i understand the topic now, but thanks for the explanation

Well, good, because it is a thing worth knowing about.

yes i see, im a bit familiar with the subject on my own thinking but i wasnt aware it was a popular argument.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

There is actually a thought experiment (not my own, natch) which addresses this exact issue.

Firstly, imagine a world where every single individual person had either a good nature or an evil one. Furthermore, imagine that this division between good and evil is exactly balanced. Finally, accept that the population of this world is in a steady state, ie, people are born and people die, but the overall population does not change.

Let us give our hypothetical world a population of 1000 individuals - 500 of them are good and 500 are evil. God dislikes this state of affairs and decides that the next 500 people who are born will have innately good natures, while the next 500 who die will be of the innately evil sort. To forestall the inevitable objection, God isn't scrapping free will. However, he knows (via omniscience) which people will be good and which will be evil, and opts to only allow the births of people who will be good, and preferentially singles out the evil people for early demises.

In rather short order, we are left with a world that is 100% good. The people of this world have an understanding and a conception of evil, they simply use their free will to behave in a fashion we can all agree to classify as 'good'.

Ta da.

Boru

[My imaginary friend is GOD]

Thank you. I am so relieved that my instinct that there was something wrong with this argument is correct.

[sven]

...or God could just not give us free will to begin with.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Thank you. I am so relieved that my instinct that there was something wrong with this argument is correct.

It is simply a longer and more detailed version of the argument, 'Why does a loving God allow the creation of people who use their free will to do evil?' For example, God know (and always has known) that someone born today will, in 25 years time, rape and murder a child. God good prevent such horror with the tiniest of miracles, such as not allowing the egg to implant in the uterine wall.

Now, let's watch the theists try and wriggle out of THAT one.

Boru

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...or God could just not give us free will to begin with.

Theists actually have a pretty good counter to that one.

God loves us and wants us to love him in return. Since you can't force someone to love you (if you do, it isn't really 'love') God, logically, has to give us the option of not loving him.

Where this one falls down is that God seems to want to visit horrendous punishment on the people who exercise that option.

Boru

[My imaginary friend is GOD]

...or God could just not give us free will to begin with.

But you see, most Christians believe that God has given them free will. So the way people make religious arguments about god, they often presuppose that it is the case that God does give them free will.

[Rahul]

Could god design a world where love exists and hate does not and people are happy and nobody is getting tortured for 44 days and lit on fire at the end?
World with happiness and without suffering?
Does logic permit such a thing?

Yes.
Yes.
Yes.