Heaven and The Problem of Evil

[truthBtold]

Jesus was a human sacrifice to God so that God would forgive us for what God set up knowing what would happen, because God wants a broken slave race to worship him and created us that way, and then punishes us for it, and you feel insanely guilty because of it.

One problem, Jesus is God.

God desired children the same way we as humans desire children, and as a father also desires our love and respect as any parent would.

Exodus 20 (KJV)
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

We "ALL" DO NOT DESIRE CHILDREN!!! FILTHY LITTLE BUGAR EATERS... HA!!

[Huggy Bear]

One problem, Jesus is God.

God desired children the same way we as humans desire children, and as a father also desires our love and respect as any parent would.

Exodus 20 (KJV)
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

God desired children the way we humans desire children? So God the great and powerful is a slave to human emotions and desires?

Also quoting biblical verses doesn't do anything to support an argument, when you have passages like this in turn...

(From Psalm 137)
"O daughter of Babylon, you devastated one, How blessed will be the one who repays you With the recompense with which you have repaid us. How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock."

How does that saying by a far wiser man than any who wrote the bible go? Oh, right...

Confucius say; an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

Funny how the ever-loving parent neglected to tell his children that infinitely-greater wisdom and instead told them that it's OK to take someone's eye if they take your eye, and their tooth if you take their tooth, given that, as Confucius so simply pointed out, if you take my eye for me taking your eye I am then entitled to take your other eye and then you can take my other eye and since neither of us have eyes now then we're blind.

Revenge begets revenge begets revenge and so on. What parent with the wisdom born of an existence of eternity and knowledge of everything would tell their children to take revenge "only to the amount to the crime you have suffered?" Revenge solves everything? Since when?? This is the same god that can destroy entire cities with his finger (Sodom, Gomorrah) but he lets the Psalmist's people get tortured and butchered without intervening, letting innocent blood be spilled, the blood of his supposedly chosen people, and then he lets those same people do the same thing that was done to them by letting them butcher the captors, and the captors' families, and people who happen to be living in the same city as the captors, who had nothing to do with the tortures?

Like I said. Don't quote bible verses. The bible is NOT a place you wanna go to to give validity to your opinions, especially if you're trying to put "love" and "respect" as attributes your god desires; there's a LOT in there that shows why he would deserve neither, and believe me when I say that I know of such passages quite intimately.

An eye for an eye? there is a word for that, it is called "Justice". I can quote the Bible because I know what I'm talking about. You can pretty much sum the bible up like this. Old Testament = Law, New Testament = Grace.

Law demands Justice hence the "eye for an eye" but Christ (God in human flesh) came so that we no longer live under the "Law" but under "Grace"(Love)

Luke 6
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful

[Godlesspanther]

Sounds like a bunch of hooey to me.

[truthBtold]

God desired children the way we humans desire children? So God the great and powerful is a slave to human emotions and desires?

Also quoting biblical verses doesn't do anything to support an argument, when you have passages like this in turn...

(From Psalm 137)
"O daughter of Babylon, you devastated one, How blessed will be the one who repays you With the recompense with which you have repaid us. How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock."

How does that saying by a far wiser man than any who wrote the bible go? Oh, right...

Confucius say; an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

Funny how the ever-loving parent neglected to tell his children that infinitely-greater wisdom and instead told them that it's OK to take someone's eye if they take your eye, and their tooth if you take their tooth, given that, as Confucius so simply pointed out, if you take my eye for me taking your eye I am then entitled to take your other eye and then you can take my other eye and since neither of us have eyes now then we're blind.

Revenge begets revenge begets revenge and so on. What parent with the wisdom born of an existence of eternity and knowledge of everything would tell their children to take revenge "only to the amount to the crime you have suffered?" Revenge solves everything? Since when?? This is the same god that can destroy entire cities with his finger (Sodom, Gomorrah) but he lets the Psalmist's people get tortured and butchered without intervening, letting innocent blood be spilled, the blood of his supposedly chosen people, and then he lets those same people do the same thing that was done to them by letting them butcher the captors, and the captors' families, and people who happen to be living in the same city as the captors, who had nothing to do with the tortures?

Like I said. Don't quote bible verses. The bible is NOT a place you wanna go to to give validity to your opinions, especially if you're trying to put "love" and "respect" as attributes your god desires; there's a LOT in there that shows why he would deserve neither, and believe me when I say that I know of such passages quite intimately.

An eye for an eye? there is a word for that, it is called "Justice". I can quote the Bible because I know what I'm talking about. You can pretty much sum the bible up like this. Old Testament = Law, New Testament = Grace.

Law demands Justice hence the "eye for an eye" but Christ (God in human flesh) came so that we no longer live under the "Law" but under "Grace"(Love)

Luke 6
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful

But commandments are under the law

[Silver]

An eye for an eye? there is a word for that, it is called "Justice".

If humans were to revert to adhering to god's justice, we would be considered no less a monster as he is portrayed in the fallible man-written bible.

I can quote the Bible

Not if you want to be taken seriously.

[Huggy Bear]

An eye for an eye? there is a word for that, it is called "Justice". I can quote the Bible because I know what I'm talking about. You can pretty much sum the bible up like this. Old Testament = Law, New Testament = Grace.

Law demands Justice hence the "eye for an eye" but Christ (God in human flesh) came so that we no longer live under the "Law" but under "Grace"(Love)

Luke 6
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful

But commandments are under the law

Which are found in the Old Testament

---

An eye for an eye? there is a word for that, it is called "Justice".

If humans were to revert to adhering to god's justice, we would be considered no less a monster as he is portrayed in the fallible man-written bible.

Seems my post went completely over your head, did you not see the rest of it?

[JuliaL]

Law demands Justice hence the "eye for an eye" but Christ (God in human flesh) came so that we no longer live under the "Law" but under "Grace"(Love)

Luke 6
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

OK, so which is it today? Law or Love?
Or are we supposed to lovingly pop out our neighbor's eye?

Can you please get your story straight? Did Old Yawy change his stripes and get nice? I'd think that'd make you reeeaaly nervous to have the omni-guy change his mind like that. You'd think he could do it again.

[Coffee Jesus]

Matthew 5:17-19 KJV

Jesus says,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

[RobbyPants]

So, you're saying that "heaven" is akin to the garden of eden? Therefore, we are capable of sin in heaven and we're capable of being kicked out? It seems like on a long enough time line, no one would be left. Where do they go?

What I'm saying is that originally there was no sin upon the earth. Satan being expelled from heaven onto the earth, caused sin to enter into the human race. Upon Jesus's return Satan is bound during the millennium and therefore will not be able to tempt anyone. ultimately he will be destroyed and sin along with him.

So, when a person dies and goes to heaven, are they going to a place that's like the Garden of Eden, or is it something different? After that thousand years, it will be impossible to sin? Satan is the only cause for it? Why did God create Satan? If he hadn't, we would have been able to exist in "heaven on earth" without sin or temptation, but God made it that way.

The point of my OP is that any imagining of heaven that involves no sin completely invalidates problem-of-evil apologetics. You have not been addressing that or refuting it.

I'll give you points for that being interesting, but I don't see that anywhere in all of the quotes you've provided. It seems beyond speculative.

What exactly is unclear.

The part where the Bible literally says that "a serpent tempted Eve to eat some fruit" actually means "the serpent who wasn't a serpent had sex with Eve... and talked about fruit and knowledge, or something".

I'm really not seeing that jump anywhere in the stuff you quoted.

So, are you saying that God is incapable of making a plane of existence where people can be happy and not disbelieve it (and sin)? If not, why doesn't he create such a place?

As I stated before he did. Satan messed it up. When Jesus returns evil is wiped out and the world will return back to what it was in the beginning except this time without Satan. I think the misconception is that people will live in heaven, not so. The earth is remade and the "children of God dwell forever upon the earth as originally planned, only this time God himself also makes his dwelling upon the earth.

Revelation 21:3
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Again, at any point in time (after Satan's thousand years), will we be capable of living in a world without sin? If so, why not cut to the chase? Why all this sin mumbo jumbo? If God could have created a world without sin and suffering, yet didn't, the only logical conclusion is that he wanted a world with sin and suffering. Your only way out of that is to assume that God can't create a world without sin and suffering, yet no Christian believes that, because they believe in heaven.

That's the whole stated point of this thread. Either:

• God cannot create a realm without suffering (ergo, heaven doesn't exist as commonly described), or
  
• God created suffering because he wanted suffering.
  

That's it. There's no magical third option; just people picking the second option and coming up with unstated reasons for why God has to allow suffering, but he doesn't have to, but he chooses to, because he loves us.

[Huggy Bear]

Law demands Justice hence the "eye for an eye" but Christ (God in human flesh) came so that we no longer live under the "Law" but under "Grace"(Love)

Luke 6
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

OK, so which is it today? Law or Love?
Or are we supposed to lovingly pop out our neighbor's eye?

Can you please get your story straight? Did Old Yawy change his stripes and get nice? I'd think that'd make you reeeaaly nervous to have the omni-guy change his mind like that. You'd think he could do it again.

Matthew 5:17-19 KJV

Jesus says,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I addressed this a long time ago, so I'll just copy and paste what i wrote in another thread.

The key Phrase being "till all is fulfilled" meaning the law will pass away at some point. If People were meant to live under the law than it would have been establsihed from the beginning, The law didn't exist until Moses.

So, if I understand correctly, Jesus says that until heaven and earth pass, the law and the prophets won't change, Paul says you just gotta get baptized, none of it counts anymore. Who's wrong?

Getting a little off topic but i'll try to explain.

Only those "in Christ" are no longer under the law. The laws only purpose is to put you under condemnation and show that you are a sinner, it has no saving qualities. Think of it as a policeman, if you are accused of breaking the law, it's only job is to bring you to the judge.

Ezekiel 18:20-23
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

As you can see the penalty for sin is death (eternal separation from God), so either you had to die or something died in your place. This is where the sacrificial lamb comes in, except that the blood of an animal had no power to change the nature of the offender. in other words the sinner still had the same desire to sin that got him in trouble in the first place.

John 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

So now comes Jesus Christ who being born in a stable, symbolizing him as a lamb, "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved" (John 3:17). His blood has the power to transform the sinner removing the desire to sin, by having his nature replace the nature of the sinners.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So now when the sinner accepts Christ and recieves his spirit , he exists in a "state of grace" (unmerited favor), because now when God looks at Him he doesn't see the sinner he sees Christ (perfection). Which means he cannot be judged under the law, because he is found blameless.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

This btw is exactly what the Jews celebrate during their Passover, being passed over for judgement. But how the Jews and Jesus tie in together is another topic.