(April 15, 2014 at 12:09 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: the fact that you don't understand doesn't make it a "non-answer" it makes you ignorant.

The insensible simplicity of it is understandable enough in so far that it can be understood for precisely the non-answer it is.

(April 15, 2014 at 11:32 am)Huggy74 Wrote:

(April 12, 2014 at 11:57 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: So why can't it just be like that here, then? You already admit it's possible for God to create as reality where people don't sin and are happy. Any suffering is unnecessary, other than because God wants it.

The misconception that most people have is that sin is an act. For example, adultery is not sin, it is an attribute (or symptom, if you will) of sin, the root of sin is unbelief (sin = unbelief).

Jude 1
(KJV)
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Hebrews 10
(KJV)
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

What the first passage is saying is that God destroyed the Hebrews that he brought out of Egypt. Why? If we compare it to the second passage then we see why. The Hebrews, after bearing witness to the plagues that Moses smote Egypt with, the parting of the red sea, the water from the rock, and ultimately God himself descending down upon mount Sinai, they still refused to believe.

So if we take that second passage and look at it this way, It becomes clear.

"For if we sin(disbelieve) wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice(forgiveness) for sins (unbelief)"

As for the question as to "why didn't God create heaven on earth?" which is the gist of your question. He did, remember the garden of Eden? God placed Adam and Eve in the garden, and gave them the best protection that he could give them which was his word (which Jesus proved by resisting the temptation of the devil by replying with "it is written"). When the serpent came to tempt Eve she started off well by quoting the instructions that God gave them, but began to reason with the word of God and ultimately began to doubt it.

(as a side note, what happened in the garden of Eden had nothing to do with actual fruit trees, which i will explain later)

(April 12, 2014 at 11:57 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: So, it's not necessary for us to suffer on earth before we can enjoy heaven. Again, any suffering is unnecessary, other than because God wants it.

I mentioned earlier, that what happened in the garden of Eden had nothing to do with fruit. What I'm about to say is controversial and most Christians aren't taught this, but the original sin in Eden was sexual. In other words, Eve had sexual intercourse with the serpent (who was not a snake). Which is why Cain is not recorded in the genealogy of Adam, because he was not Adams son.

Genesis 5 (KJV)
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

The genealogy traces the lineage of the first born son. Abel (who was Adams son) was killed having no children making Seth next in line, there is no mention of Cain.

Sin did not exist in the beginning because it was not in mans nature. For example, what makes a lamb and a wolf different? their nature. A lamb has no desire to be a wolf and neither does a "son of God" have any desire or capacity to sin (disbelieve).

But what happened in Eden was the Serpent (as I said before was not a snake, God changed him into a snake after what he had done. "And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:" Genesis 3:14), who was "human like" had sexual relations with Eve which resulted in Cain (the first murderer) showing that the nature of the wolf entered into the lambs nature through sex which Cain proved by his actions. Sex was never in the plan of God from the beginning, but is now only allowed through the institution of marriage in order to procreate. Now you see why homosexuality is a problem.

This brings up the question of how was man supposed to reproduce? Mankind (plural), which means all of us, was created "in the image of God" (spirit form) in the first chapter of Genesis, Adam (the first man to have a body) was not created till the second chapter.

And Adam as the Bible states was a "son of god", he had the authority to create people (form their bodies) out of the dust just like God did, but lost that power when he fell. which is why Jesus (born of a virgin) who is also referred to as the "second Adam" upon his return will call his people up from the dust as it was supposed to be done in the beginning.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

(April 12, 2014 at 11:57 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: So basically, God wants us to suffer for undisclosed reasons, despite the fact that you've twice admitted he can realize a paradigm where we don't suffer. Your argument is basically "it doesn't make any sense, but I believe it, anyway."

Based on your reasoning, we only suffer because God wants us to suffer. There is no external reason for it; he just wants us to suffer.

We suffer because we are in a fallen state. As I said before, Eden was heaven on earth, then sin (unbelief) entered, which is the reason for our suffering. Christ came to redeem the earth with his blood and restore everything back to what it was in the beginning.

Jesus was a human sacrifice to God so that God would forgive us for what God set up knowing what would happen, because God wants a broken slave race to worship him and created us that way, and then punishes us for it, and you feel insanely guilty because of it.

(April 15, 2014 at 11:32 am)Huggy74 Wrote: As for the question as to "why didn't God create heaven on earth?" which is the gist of your question. He did, remember the garden of Eden? God placed Adam and Eve in the garden, and gave them the best protection that he could give them which was his word (which Jesus proved by resisting the temptation of the devil by replying with "it is written"). When the serpent came to tempt Eve she started off well by quoting the instructions that God gave them, but began to reason with the word of God and ultimately began to doubt it.

So, you're saying that "heaven" is akin to the garden of eden? Therefore, we are capable of sin in heaven and we're capable of being kicked out? It seems like on a long enough time line, no one would be left. Where do they go?

(April 15, 2014 at 11:32 am)Huggy74 Wrote: I mentioned earlier, that what happened in the garden of Eden had nothing to do with fruit. What I'm about to say is controversial and most Christians aren't taught this, but the original sin in Eden was sexual. In other words, Eve had sexual intercourse with the serpent (who was not a snake). Which is why Cain is not recorded in the genealogy of Adam, because he was not Adams son.

Genesis 5 (KJV)
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

The genealogy traces the lineage of the first born son. Abel (who was Adams son) was killed having no children making Seth next in line, there is no mention of Cain.

Sin did not exist in the beginning because it was not in mans nature. For example, what makes a lamb and a wolf different? their nature. A lamb has no desire to be a wolf and neither does a "son of God" have any desire or capacity to sin (disbelieve).

But what happened in Eden was the Serpent (as I said before was not a snake, God changed him into a snake after what he had done. "And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:" Genesis 3:14), who was "human like" had sexual relations with Eve which resulted in Cain (the first murderer) showing that the nature of the wolf entered into the lambs nature through sex which Cain proved by his actions. Sex was never in the plan of God from the beginning, but is now only allowed through the institution of marriage in order to procreate. Now you see why homosexuality is a problem.

This brings up the question of how was man supposed to reproduce? Mankind (plural), which means all of us, was created "in the image of God" (spirit form) in the first chapter of Genesis, Adam (the first man to have a body) was not created till the second chapter.

And Adam as the Bible states was a "son of god", he had the authority to create people (form their bodies) out of the dust just like God did, but lost that power when he fell. which is why Jesus (born of a virgin) who is also referred to as the "second Adam" upon his return will call his people up from the dust as it was supposed to be done in the beginning.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

I'll give you points for that being interesting, but I don't see that anywhere in all of the quotes you've provided. It seems beyond speculative.

(April 15, 2014 at 11:32 am)Huggy74 Wrote:

(April 12, 2014 at 11:57 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: So basically, God wants us to suffer for undisclosed reasons, despite the fact that you've twice admitted he can realize a paradigm where we don't suffer. Your argument is basically "it doesn't make any sense, but I believe it, anyway."

Based on your reasoning, we only suffer because God wants us to suffer. There is no external reason for it; he just wants us to suffer.

We suffer because we are in a fallen state. As I said before, Eden was heaven on earth, then sin (unbelief) entered, which is the reason for our suffering. Christ came to redeem the earth with his blood and restore everything back to what it was in the beginning.

So, are you saying that God is incapable of making a plane of existence where people can be happy and not disbelieve it (and sin)? If not, why doesn't he create such a place?

(April 15, 2014 at 12:22 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: So, are you saying that God is incapable of making a plane of existence where people can be happy and not disbelieve it (and sin)? If not, why doesn't he create such a place?

He cannot, because then he would not be a psycho.

(April 15, 2014 at 12:15 pm)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: Jesus was a human sacrifice to God so that God would forgive us for what God set up knowing what would happen, because God wants a broken slave race to worship him and created us that way, and then punishes us for it, and you feel insanely guilty because of it.

One problem, Jesus is God.

God desired children the same way we as humans desire children, and as a father also desires our love and respect as any parent would.

Exodus 20 (KJV)
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

(April 15, 2014 at 12:23 pm)Kitanetos Wrote:

(April 15, 2014 at 12:22 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: So, are you saying that God is incapable of making a plane of existence where people can be happy and not disbelieve it (and sin)? If not, why doesn't he create such a place?

He cannot, because then he would not be a psycho.

Yes, that is what the first commandment boils down to -- god must be a psycho and you must worship that psycho.

(April 15, 2014 at 12:28 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: One problem, Jesus is God.

God desired children the same way we as humans desire children, and as a father also desires our love and respect as any parent would.

Exodus 20 (KJV)
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

God desired children the way we humans desire children? So God the great and powerful is a slave to human emotions and desires?

Also quoting biblical verses doesn't do anything to support an argument, when you have passages like this in turn...

(From Psalm 137)
"O daughter of Babylon, you devastated one, How blessed will be the one who repays you With the recompense with which you have repaid us. How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock."

How does that saying by a far wiser man than any who wrote the bible go? Oh, right...

Confucius say; an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

Funny how the ever-loving parent neglected to tell his children that infinitely-greater wisdom and instead told them that it's OK to take someone's eye if they take your eye, and their tooth if you take their tooth, given that, as Confucius so simply pointed out, if you take my eye for me taking your eye I am then entitled to take your other eye and then you can take my other eye and since neither of us have eyes now then we're blind.

Revenge begets revenge begets revenge and so on. What parent with the wisdom born of an existence of eternity and knowledge of everything would tell their children to take revenge "only to the amount to the crime you have suffered?" Revenge solves everything? Since when?? This is the same god that can destroy entire cities with his finger (Sodom, Gomorrah) but he lets the Psalmist's people get tortured and butchered without intervening, letting innocent blood be spilled, the blood of his supposedly chosen people, and then he lets those same people do the same thing that was done to them by letting them butcher the captors, and the captors' families, and people who happen to be living in the same city as the captors, who had nothing to do with the tortures?

Like I said. Don't quote bible verses. The bible is NOT a place you wanna go to to give validity to your opinions, especially if you're trying to put "love" and "respect" as attributes your god desires; there's a LOT in there that shows why he would deserve neither, and believe me when I say that I know of such passages quite intimately.

(April 15, 2014 at 12:22 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: So, you're saying that "heaven" is akin to the garden of eden? Therefore, we are capable of sin in heaven and we're capable of being kicked out? It seems like on a long enough time line, no one would be left. Where do they go?

What I'm saying is that originally there was no sin upon the earth. Satan being expelled from heaven onto the earth, caused sin to enter into the human race. Upon Jesus's return Satan is bound during the millennium and therefore will not be able to tempt anyone. ultimately he will be destroyed and sin along with him.

(April 15, 2014 at 12:22 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: I'll give you points for that being interesting, but I don't see that anywhere in all of the quotes you've provided. It seems beyond speculative.

What exactly is unclear.

(April 15, 2014 at 12:22 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: So, are you saying that God is incapable of making a plane of existence where people can be happy and not disbelieve it (and sin)? If not, why doesn't he create such a place?

As I stated before he did. Satan messed it up. When Jesus returns evil is wiped out and the world will return back to what it was in the beginning except this time without Satan. I think the misconception is that people will live in heaven, not so. The earth is remade and the "children of God dwell forever upon the earth as originally planned, only this time God himself also makes his dwelling upon the earth.

Revelation 21:3
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

(April 15, 2014 at 11:57 am)Huggy74 Wrote:

(April 15, 2014 at 11:43 am)Kitanetos Wrote: The nonsensical theistic answer is irrelevant and has no basis in reality for the simple reason that religion always attributes more to the suffering of humankind than actually eliminating it.

Actually my answer was totally relevant to the question. Here is a novel idea, how about not asking theistic questions if you don't want to hear a theistic answer.

Also notice what I put under "religious views". Religion has always been an institution of Satan not God.

---

(April 15, 2014 at 11:49 am)truthBtold Wrote: Nice personal translation. . I dont think so... next!!

Which part do you consider a "personal translation"?

The parts in ( )... thats ur personal translation. .

(April 15, 2014 at 12:52 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: As I stated before he did. Satan messed it up.

Yet an almighty god is still incapable of fixing a problem brought about by one of his own creations? Some, omniscient being you have there, not realizing that his own beloved creation would ruin life for humanity.