Proving the Bible

[lordofgemini]

You just brought us back to step one of this discussion.

I think that's where we have been the whole time.

I am not presenting a claim about how the universe was formed, I am pointing out that any possibility is just as valid as god until we have sufficient evidence for god. As far as I am aware, at this time the best that theoretical physicists can do is make guesses about "how." It may be agonizing to not know for sure (or worse, not know at all) but if we try to soothe that need to know by inserting things that we cannot validate, it makes it more difficult to figure out what really did happen.

A simple example would be: what proof is there that there had to be a starting point outside of the universe? In other words, what proof is there that my imagined universe (which is simply a self-perpetuating machine) cannot be true?

Step one was universe cannot as itself be eternal. I went through all that, to prove there must be only one thing that can be eternal. Call it whatever u like. This is the evidence of God.
(apart from history that men came claiming to be prophets throughout the history till Prophet Muhammad. And they got scriptures that talk about many many things claiming to be from God e.g The Origins of the Universe, Clouds, Mountains, Deep Seas and Internal Waves, Seas and Rivers, Human Embryonic Development, The Cerebrum, who could claim all that)
And I dont want to discuss about religion BTW.

As for your theory is easily debunkable. Make any theory other then the existence of an eternal God it will be easily be debunkable.
Your universe itself is subject to time so there must be a start. How did it start. What was the first cause that it did even start leave alone perpetuate. You theory is still inside that logical loop, that leads us to nowhere. This itself is proof that your theory is wrong. There must be something that was always there. In the equation if the universe.

[Rampant.A.I.]

The universe itself is no much subject to time, as time itself is an artifact of the existing universe.

Causality may not have existed in any way we can understand it, and as mentioned by StuW, at the quantum level casualty seems entangled to a level that causes don't always come before events as conventional wisdom would hold.

It seems that as matter interacts with matter, it becomes more entangled in ways that make simple cause-effect relationships almost meaningless at the quantum level, or at the very least nonlinear.

If causality is that complex in the existing universe, we have no idea what the state of affairs could have been before the universe, or outside the existing universe.

[Tonus]

In other words, what proof is there that my imagined universe (which is simply a self-perpetuating machine) cannot be true?

Step one was universe cannot as itself be eternal.

But you aren't proving that, you're just asserting it. You have no proof that the universe cannot simply collapse upon itself and be reborn, just as I cannot prove that there isn't a god who created it. Either assertion is equally valid if they lack sufficient evidence to prove or disprove them.

You infer that since the universe must have begun to exist at some point, there must be a causal agent outside of space and time who created it. I am imagining a universe whose existence is the result of other universes birthing it, either in a continuous loop or as the result of other forces that continue to create new realities. I have as much proof for that suggestion as you do for a causal agent. You can no more disprove my 'theory' than I can yours. You cannot "debunk" mine by mere assertion, likewise I cannot "debunk" yours.

Your universe itself is subject to time so there must be a start. How did it start. What was the first cause that it did even start leave alone perpetuate. You theory is still inside that logical loop, that leads us to nowhere.

I am imagining a universe that collapses upon itself and into an infinitesimally small point that stands outside of space and time, and then begins to expand, at which point both space and time begin to exist. I am imagining a black hole that spews material into a whole new dimension, which suddenly begins to exist.

There, now the universe has a first cause and a start, and no god involved. See how easy this is?

[Bad Writer]

Step one was universe cannot as itself be eternal. I went through all that, to prove there must be only one thing that can be eternal. Call it whatever u like. This is the evidence of God.

Whether or not the universe is or isn't eternal is (as of yet) an unanswerable question, so your proof fails. With that failed proof, you equate the universe to god, which as of yet is still undefined. Placing arbitrary and superfluous labels like "god" on something already called "the universe" is asinine, for I might as well call that something "the holy fountain of never-ending cheese". A universe (which you can't prove to be eternal, nor the only one in existence) is not evidence of god.

And I dont want to discuss about religion BTW.

Call it whatever u like. This is the evidence of God.

Oops.

As for your theory is easily debunkable. Make any theory other then the existence of an eternal God it will be easily be debunkable.

Your universe itself is subject to time so there must be a start.

It's your universe too, btw. Also, must there have been a start, other than what we know about the Big Bang? Do you know the nature of the universe prior to the Big Bang? Do you know the nature of time?

There must be something that was always there. In the equation if the universe.

Saying "godidit" isn't answering these questions. Real evidence of the existence of a god is necessary to even postulate that one is necessary for "the equation [of] the universe".

[StuW]

lordofgemini, you seem to be hung up on the idea of something being eternal but aren't grasping the fact that for something to be eternal it has to exist WITHIN time as eternal is a measure of time, calling something eternal outside of the universe may be nonsensical. Another thing to consider about something eternal is that for any event to happen in an eternal time frame there had to be an infinite time before it's occurrence... i.e. it never occurs, so it's illogical for something to be eternal in the way you are asserting.

[Brian37]

What's left besides God, I wish I could remember the evolutionist name that made this statement. We believe in evolution because if there is no evolution only one thing remains God.

GC

Circular reasoning does not constitute evidence. Take your own statement above and anywhere you use the word "God" replace it with Allah or Vishnu or Thor, then ask yourself if the statement still makes any sense. Only the deeply deluded or flat out liar would ignore their own bad logic.

Accepting evolution as a believer does not make your god or any god real. Just like their is no Allah based gravity, or Thor based lightening. Evolution is not a religion nor did any type of god cause it.

[ThomM]

For this quick post I just want to focus on people that tear down evolution to build up creation.
So let's say for the sake of argument evolution is blown Out of the water. Now prove Biblical creationism.

We already KNOW that the bible is not a historically accurate document. The catholic church has already admitted that the genesis stories are allegories - and do not have to be taken as fact - and most other major xtian sects do the same. It is only a small group of fundamentalist xtians who still claim the bible to be inerrant.

The bible cannot be proven TRUE
The bible can be proven to have errors - contradictions - and falsehoods.

And once they accepted that the bible is not inerrant truth - the rest of the stories are left without support. When the bible was claimed to be inerrant - and the church could enforce that belief - it self proved. Once you accept that it has flaws - tbe bible becomes only as good as the proof offered from outside of the bible. And since virtually all of the bible stories have no outside proof - they remain religious MYTH - nothing more.

The writings of religous groups - from the Koran - to the Egyptian book of the Dead - to the Bible - and many others - are simply Fairy tales - which have no provable basis in fact.

And that creates a problem - the one that religion had never been able to address - the lack of proof of any of the supernatural claims of their belief - because they cannot move from acceptance of a god - even if that god ONLY made the big bang happen - to the nonsense of heaven, hell, angels, devils, souls - and other nonsense

Religion is on the wane - even those who belong - are believing less and less of what they are told. And many young people are forced into it - but do not believe at all - and simply go through the motions to avoid conflict with older family. The western nations -= where religion is really going extinct - is where religion gets its money - and where it once got its clergy. But there is a shortage of clergy in almost all religions today - and the reduction in money is preventing them from keeping open lots of now closed schools and churches.

There is no need to PROVE the bible - it is FALSE already

[Revelation777]

I've tried this before, L/V. They won't take the bait. They know there is no evidence for their bullshit. That's why they merely try to invent imaginary holes in the TofE and then pretend that their bullshit is the only other choice.

It's kind of like the empty-tomb horseshit. If the tomb really was "empty" then it MUST mean that their godboy came back from the dead. What other answer could there be?

Well He did come back from the dead and appeared to over 500 persons.

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What's left besides God, I wish I could remember the evolutionist name that made this statement. We believe in evolution because if there is no evolution only one thing remains God.

GC

Proof?

Where is your faith? Don't you marvel at His creation? Of do you believe this is a great accident?

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I'll save you the time: nobody worth the time it would take to learn their name said that. Seriously, you can't possibly think that what you just said accurately reflects the state of things?

Sure he can. G-C is the king of the jesus freak idiots.

Believe my friend and be set free. The Truth will set you free. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Pretty much preaching now, Rev.

Seems like you've abandoned any desire to dialogue and have gone straight to the default theist mindset of "keep repeating my faith as fact and ignore all questions and rebuttals."

How sad.

[Lemonvariable72]

Hey rev, these 500 persons you refer too, can you quote anything that was Written by them. Something authenticated by a objective source.