Religious "moderates" and atheists

[Mudhammam]

Moderate christians tend to be "wishy-washy" and liberal christians just seem to ignore clear doctrine. The mainline denominations, like Methodists, Presbyterians, etc, have been losing members dramatically since their doctrines have become more and more liberal. I agree that much of the bible is open for interpretation, but certain doctrines like the existence of hell, are very clearly stated. Jesus clearly let it be known that if you followed him the "world" would be against you. You can't be a christian and just throw away doctrines because they upset people.

But clearly one can be a Christian and reject the fundamentalist interpretation of a literal hell where people suffer under everlasting persecution for excising their allegedly God-given gift of free will to question and reject God's existence.

[Lek]

Christianity is losing adherents all over the developed world. It's not because the religion is being liberalized, but because the religion is becoming obsolete. What was once Christendom is now one of the most secular areas of the world, and the most in human history. The boost in Christian adherents comes mostly from poor, underdeveloped parts of the world, where people breed more, are less educated, and are more susceptible to the lies.

Jesus said that "it's harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle". When nations and people gain too much material wealth they become proud start to think they can do it all themselves. That's when they begin to collapse, as in the case of present day America and Western Europe. It's all history repeating itself.

[Silver]

The boost in Christian adherents comes mostly from poor, underdeveloped parts of the world, where people breed more, are less educated, and are more susceptible to the lies.

True to a degree, except it does seem to be quite the opposite in 'Murica. The Christian Right tends to be comprised of the wealthy who understand what it takes to remain in power.

[Lek]

But clearly one can be a Christian and reject the fundamentalist interpretation of a literal hell where people suffer under everlasting persecution for excising their allegedly God-given gift of free will to question and reject God's existence.

Yes, they can reject that interpretation, because the bible has much evidence to indicate that hell is not eternal. What is clearly stated, though, is that hell does exist.

[Silver]

What is clearly stated, though, is that hell does exist.

Except that the unholy babble is not sufficient evidence for anything except man's fallible worldview attempting to shape a world order.

[Ryantology]

Jesus said that "it's harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle". When nations and people gain too much material wealth they become proud start to think they can do it all themselves. That's when they begin to collapse, as in the case of present day America and Western Europe. It's all history repeating itself.

Jesus also said to sell your possessions and give it all to the poor, and you obviously haven't, so I like how you say this, as if you aren't one of the 'rich men' he's talking about.

[Mudhammam]

What is clearly stated, though, is that hell does exist.

Except that the unholy babble is not sufficient evidence for anything except man's fallible worldview attempting to shape a world order.

Which raises the other issue I have a big problem with, and think anyone who truly grasps the suffering it causes does too--that fundamentalism involves raising children ill-equipped to think freely, to use their reasoning faculties to question all ideas and formulate their own views independent of that lingering voice in the back of their head which they misunderstand as God's. It is that haranguing voice of authority that utters condemnations when one steps too far over the line, an all-too-human screech. It is not the voice of a well-reasoned moral compass but that of a diabolical theocrat.

[archangle]

Except that the unholy babble is not sufficient evidence for anything except man's fallible worldview attempting to shape a world order.

Which raises the other issue I have a big problem with, and think anyone who truly grasps the suffering it causes does too--that fundamentalism involves raising children ill-equipped to think freely, to use their reasoning faculties to question all ideas and formulate their own views independent of that lingering voice in the back of their head which they misunderstand as God's. It is that haranguing voice of authority that utters condemnations when one steps too far over the line, an all-too-human screech. It is not the voice of a well-reasoned moral compass but that of a diabolical theocrat.

so the problem is fundies ... not religion. Been saying that since i was in the sixth grade. your almost there ... keep thinking and talking.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Christianity is losing adherents all over the developed world. It's not because the religion is being liberalized, but because the religion is becoming obsolete. What was once Christendom is now one of the most secular areas of the world, and the most in human history. The boost in Christian adherents comes mostly from poor, underdeveloped parts of the world, where people breed more, are less educated, and are more susceptible to the lies.

Jesus said that "it's harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle". When nations and people gain too much material wealth they become proud start to think they can do it all themselves. That's when they begin to collapse, as in the case of present day America and Western Europe. It's all history repeating itself.

I'm not aware of the collapse of the western world.

Where did you get your source material for that claim?

[Mister Agenda]

The boost in Christian adherents comes mostly from poor, underdeveloped parts of the world, where people breed more, are less educated, and are more susceptible to the lies.

True to a degree, except it does seem to be quite the opposite in 'Murica. The Christian Right tends to be comprised of the wealthy who understand what it takes to remain in power.

Europe had two world wars on their own soil in living memory. I think it may have impacted their ability to believe in a loving, omnipotent God.