Believers!! Don't mislead people

[Brian37]

The only reason I am continuing to respond to your ignorance and stupidity is because I want ARAB women to read this and KNOW they do not have to put up with this shit.

Too bad, I thought you were serious with the discussion, and have logical explanations for your contentions
but it is just your opinion and dogmatism. Carry on. . .

The only one not being serious is you.

If that book were harmless like you stupidly want to think, you would not have a infestation of sexism in the Middle east, you would not have Sunnis and Shiites murdering each other for that matter. They get their morality from the same book reading the exact same words.

It is the same reason Baptists don't like Catholics and both of them think Mormons are fake Christians, because all of them have the same shared book and fictional sky hero.

Cherry pick any book and you can justify anything.

As long as Arab women read my words you can continue to show them how little you actually care about them.

[FatAndFaithless]

This reminds me of Christians that twist themselves into painfully contorted logic knots when someone points out the explicit endorsement of slavery in the bible. Again, isn't it possible (and likely) that the people who wrote the Koran (since it isn't divinely inspired) are simply WRONG? Holding a book up as a useful philosophical guide to follow (which is what I think you're doing since you disregard God claims) doesn't mean that you have to agree with every single point, nor does it mean you have to twist anything you find disagreeable into something nice and simpatico.

Instead of taking the mantle of "The guy who interprets the Koran correctly while these other millions of people have it wrong", drop the arrogation of accuracy and just be open to the idea that a millennia and a half ago some dudes got some shit wrong.

[Brian37]

This reminds me of Christians that twist themselves into painfully contorted logic knots when someone points out the explicit endorsement of slavery in the bible. Again, isn't it possible (and likely) that the people who wrote the Koran (since it isn't divinely inspired) are simply WRONG? Holding a book up as a useful philosophical guide to follow (which is what I think you're doing since you disregard God claims) doesn't mean that you have to agree with every single point, nor does it mean you have to twist anything you find disagreeable into something nice and simpatico.

Instead of taking the mantle of "The guy who interprets the Koran correctly while these other millions of people have it wrong", drop the arrogation of accuracy and just be open to the idea that a millennia and a half ago some dudes got some shit wrong.

No, it is precisely because they cherry pick that they cannot see that that book does not apply today, and allows them to ignore that they got some shit wrong. It was a social norm to be tribal and sexist back then, but now it it goes way beyond a isolated time in antiquity wen the weapons were mere arrows.

The ones taking their books word for word without watering it down are the ones getting it right(meaning being god's gang minion). That is what is wrong about it, but the ones who water it down give these sickos cover to continue doing what is wrong.

So unless you take your god goggles off and read it word for word without glossing it over you will not see how dangerous the book really is.

[Muslim Atheism]

If that book were harmless like you stupidly want to think, you would not have a infestation of sexism in the Middle east, you would not have Sunnis and Shiites murdering each other for that matter. They get their morality from the same book reading the exact same words.

No . . today's Muslim don't study and follow the Quran
They follow the Persian hadiths and scholars. . .

They don't follow the rules of Usul al Fiqh

The Quran is not even a syllabus in the Islamic Institution

It is curious to note that the study of the Quran is not included in the curriculum. A certain exegesis (Jilalain) is taught that consists of only synonyms of the Quranic words. In the last year of study an exegesis of the second chapter of the Quran is taught (Bazadi). This is the education upon completion of which they receive certification for becoming an aalim (knowledgeable person); The Ulema—Who Are They?

They misunderstood the true language of the Quran, ie. the Quraish dialects (refer here)

The First Dilemma: While the language of the Qur’an remained untouched, its words and terms were made to lose the splendor they so beautifully conveyed in the original, revealed Arabic Mubeen. So much so, that the Qur’anic terms were dressed up with the erroneous philosophies prevalent in the once Zoroastrian culture of Persia, and they became widely accepted even among the Arabs! This staggering tragedy explains why, how and where, even the Arabic speaking people lose their touch with the Qur’an!

. . .

Now The Third Dilemma: The later generations of translators and commentators have uncritically followed the men of old and this tendency has been consistently taking its noxious toll. They have been thinking of the Ajami Arabic as the known Language of the Qur’an. By Ajami Arabic I mean applying the Zoro-Persian or any alien concepts to the Arabic words and terms of the Qur’an.

The history in the Quran repeated itself. . .
and Allah already mentioned about this in the Quran

And that Day the wrongdoer will bite on his hand and say:
“I wish I had taken the path with the messenger!”
“Woe to me, I wish I did not take so and so as a friend!”
“He has misguided me from the remembrance after it came to me,
and the devil was always a betrayer of mankind!”

And the messenger (Muhammad) said:
“My Lord, my people have deserted this Qur’an.”
25.27-30

So it is not surprising at all.

[FatAndFaithless]

This reminds me of Christians that twist themselves into painfully contorted logic knots when someone points out the explicit endorsement of slavery in the bible. Again, isn't it possible (and likely) that the people who wrote the Koran (since it isn't divinely inspired) are simply WRONG? Holding a book up as a useful philosophical guide to follow (which is what I think you're doing since you disregard God claims) doesn't mean that you have to agree with every single point, nor does it mean you have to twist anything you find disagreeable into something nice and simpatico.

Instead of taking the mantle of "The guy who interprets the Koran correctly while these other millions of people have it wrong", drop the arrogation of accuracy and just be open to the idea that a millennia and a half ago some dudes got some shit wrong.

No, it is precisely because they cherry pick that they cannot see that that book does not apply today, and allows them to ignore that they got some shit wrong. It was a social norm to be tribal and sexist back then, but now it it goes way beyond a isolated time in antiquity wen the weapons were mere arrows.

The ones taking their books word for word without watering it down are the ones getting it right(meaning being god's gang minion). That is what is wrong about it, but the ones who water it down give these sickos cover to continue doing what is wrong.

So unless you take your god goggles off and read it word for word without glossing it over you will not see how dangerous the book really is.

I can totally see people adhering to the letter of the Koran literally because they are God's gang minion, but I'm more curious because "Muslim Atheism" doesn't, as far as I can tell, hold any sort of divine God concept, and at least in my opinion doesn't have any reason to think the Koran is infallible.

[Muslim Atheism]

and at least in my opinion doesn't have any reason to think the Koran is infallible.

I believe it is reasonable and justified. . unless and until people can bring a counterargument. Therefore, it is not blind faith and based on reasoning.

Why ?

Allah has already presented His argument.

Logically, it is now the time for a counterargument and it is absurd for people to repeatedly ask for the main argument through blank denials, fallacy; and without even presenting any counterargument.

1. Main argument.
2. Counterargument.
3. Rebuttal argument.

How to counter Allah’s argument?

The IF, THEN, ELSE statement from the wording of the verse itself.

And

[IF] you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant

[THEN] produce a surah the like thereof
and call upon your witnesses other than Allah ,
if you should be truthful.

[ELSE] But if you do not
and you will never be able to
then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

[END IF]
2.23-24

Therefore. . .

Issue:

Why do you believe the Quran is NOT the Word of Allah?

Counterargument (how to counter Allah’s argument):

Produce one like the Quran, without any inconsistency and amendment
and corroborating with history, science, nature, universe, future, mathematical numerology etc. . .

ELSE. . . consider the words of Allah! [END IF]

as we can see. . .

Allah has presented His main argument
and you need to make a counterargument by presenting one like the Quran (your evidence).
Only then it is time for rebuttal argument.
That’s how it works, even in court or during trial.
If you cannot make a counterargument, then I have no case to answer.
Your opinion have no merit. . simple.


. . .

p.s. Compare it with your Constitution or statutory laws, how many times it has been declared null and void or amended ?

[FatAndFaithless]

and at least in my opinion doesn't have any reason to think the Koran is infallible.

I believe it is reasonable and justified. . unless and until people can bring a counterargument. Therefore, it is not blind faith and based on reasoning.

Why ?

Allah has already presented His argument.

Logically, it is now the time for a counterargument and it is absurd for people to repeatedly ask for the main argument through blank denials; and without presenting any counterargument.

1. Main argument.
2. Counterargument.
3. Rebuttal argument.

How to counter Allah’s argument?

The IF, THEN, ELSE statement from the wording of the verse itself.

And

[IF] you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant

[THEN] produce a surah the like thereof
and call upon your witnesses other than Allah ,
if you should be truthful.

[ELSE] But if you do not
and you will never be able to
then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

[END IF]
2.23-24

Therefore. . .

Issue:

Why do you believe the Quran is NOT the Word of Allah?

Counterargument (how to counter Allah’s argument):

Produce one like the Quran, without any inconsistency and amendment
and corroborating with history, science, nature, universe, future, mathematical numerology etc. . .

ELSE. . . consider the words of Allah! [END IF]



. . .

p.s. Compare it with your Constitution or statutory laws, how many times it has been declared null and void or amended ?

I'm becoming increasingly tired of your dishonest discussion methods. Shifting the burden of proof won't get you anywhere here. I asked why you believe the Koran is true in its entirety, and you responded with essentially "I believe it because I believe it", which is a statement devoid of substance. Then you assert that "Allah has already presented his argument". Who is Allah? I thought you discounted God claims?

Then there is the No True Scotsman, where you say the Koran is true and moral, but when asked why so many Muslims who also claim to follow it perform such heinous actions, you simply say "they aren't following it".

And please, when asked to validate claims in the Koran, do not simply respond with a Koran verse.

I usually try to remain calm and respectful during these kinds of discussions, but I have to say you're way of dodging, ignoring, and twisting ideas is very grating.

[Muslim Atheism]

See? I have no case to answer for the following issue. Simple.

Issue:

Why do you believe the Quran is NOT the Word of Allah?

Counterargument (how to counter Allah’s argument):

Produce one like the Quran, without any inconsistency and amendment
and corroborating with history, science, nature, universe, future, mathematical numerology etc. . .

ELSE. . . consider the words of Allah! [END IF]

---

Who is Allah? I thought you discounted God claims?

Well, I don't believe in God, Allah is not God. .
and it is about facts from the Quran. . . the doctrine itself
How can you speak about the "doctrine" without referring to the main source of that "doctrine"? ie. the Quran, the Constitution (refer here)

Further, the Quran is consistent without any inconsistency and reasonably proven not to be the word of a man
in facts, it is almost impossible to believe a man who live 1400 years ago did this
and we cannot hope to get "direct evidence", because it will defeat the main purpose of creation, the test
but there is an abundance of "circumstantial and corroborative evidence" relating to "supernatural higher intelligence" and "law of causation"
where no one can disapprove these facts. . one cannot be a scientist or rational person if they reject the "law of cause and effect"
this "circumstantial and corroborative evidence" is better and more weight than "direct evidence" pertaining to the issue of creations

and Allah does not require one to believe in Allah to be a Muslim.
This is the doctrine of Islam from the Quran, and I believe the issue you raise relating to who is Allah is irrelevant.

Here is my proof.

Contention: Muslim don’t have to believe in Allah, Paradise, Angels, and all the allegorical issue that need further interpretation

Read together with verses 3.7 and 5.101.

This is the minimum requirement and it is the “interpretation provision” of a Muslim and a Believer.

The bedouins say, “We have believed.” (about faith, believers)

Say, “You have not believed; (about faith, believers)

but say, ‘We have submitted,’ (about obedience, muslim)

for faith has not yet entered your hearts. (faith beyond human control, not our fault)

And if you obey Allah and His Messenger (about obedience, muslim)
He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. (ie. including paradise etc)
Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.” (any mistakes relating to faith)
49.14-15

Firstly

When Allah says “You have not believed”
It means, “You have not believed”
It does not means, “You have believed”

Simple logic, everyone can understand this statement.
Someone may argue that they have believed, but it is not according to Allah.
There are specific provisions to define the Believers, and it is not for human beings to simply claim that they are Believers.

Therefore it doesn’t matter if they believe or did not believe.
What matter is they obey the rules in the Quran, and what is related to the “practical aspect of life”.


Secondly

When Allah says “You have not believed”
and then, ‘We have submitted’
It means, there is a distinction between “Believers” and “Muslim”
It means, there is a distinction between “faith” and “obedience”
These two do not mean the same, and human being only be accountable for “obedience”, not “faith”

Faith is beyond human control, but obedience is within human control.
“Faith” is within the Allah’s jurisdiction, and “obedience” is within human’s jurisdiction.
There is no blame for what is beyond human control.

Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity. (2.286)


Thirdly

When Allah says “And if you obey Allah and His Messenger.
He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything”
and then “Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful”

It means, one can enter Paradise even if he does not believe in Allah at all.
It can be wrong, but Allah said “Allah is Forgiving and Merciful”
Allah will forgive whatever mistakes that is related or may arise from “lack of faith”
Muslim only concern with their “practical aspect of life”

Accordingly, a Muslim is not necessarily the so called Muslim as we know today, the system of Islam is to simplify life so that the society can unite, not to complicated life and raising all issues and creating more and more division in the society. These people are sectarians, and "sectarianism is a religion". They are "religious people", whatever name they attached themselves to.

[Muslim Atheism]

By the way, it was not "revealed" at all. It is a complete spin off of Christianity which is a spin off of Hebrew, which is a spin off of the Canaanite polytheism.

Don't just make blank accusations, denials and fallacy etc. . . "I deny, I deny, I deny" . . . it doesn't prove anything.
Please prove your point, make clear what is the issue, premises, conclusion and show me some inconsistency using valid logical premises from the Quran. . .

[TubbyTubby]

Well, I don't believe in God, Allah is not God. .
and it is about facts from the Quran. . . the doctrine itself

Tell me, what is it like in your fairy tale world?