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How to discuss religion with believers?
#1
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How to discuss religion with believers?
Hello,
I'm a chemist irl and work in a research center. I've always been very curious and inquisitive and even though I grew up in a christian family, it didn't take long for me to discard any belief in general.

I'd classify myself as an agnostic, since I don't really have proof for the non-existence of some "creator", but my views are very close to those of an atheist. I have a nihilistic view of the world and life, in my view there is no good/evil, there are just a bunch of things that move. I found myself often discussing religion with believers, be it christians or muslims, but every time we hit a wall. There is just one thing that I, as a scientist, can't accept: believe something without proof. 

No matter how nice and detailed and passionate one religion can be, it's still a book written by another person like me that, for all I know, could have been a troll. The main argument of these people is always the same: "How do you explain this and that? You can't, so it must be because of God, as it's written in this book". 

This is non-sense and just bad practice in the research world, as it's not my duty to prove its non-existence: it's their duty to prove its existence. When writing a research paper or defending my doctoral thesis, I was being questioned for the smallest things like "how can you say for sure that you found that crystalline phase in this solid? From XRD I only see peaks relative to this and that phase, so you are speculating a bit", so how can I let pass something huge like "I can't explain it, so it must be God's work" as a proof of god's existence?

I tried discussing religion with a seemingly chill muslim who looked very quiet and available when I was asking him about islam, but when I started questioning his point, stating that what he presented wasn't enough proof, he started getting irritated and annoyed, since according to him I should have already been converted by his speech. His argument was:
"The quran describes scientific facts in detail and it's the word of Allah. So what other proof do you need to believe in islam?"
However from my experience, any chemistry of physics book does the same thing without claiming it to be the word of god. According to his reasoning, then any scientist could claim godhood by stating "This phenomenon happens because of this, I dare you to prove it wrong. Yeah you can't, I'm god."
At this point he just got mad and started saying I'll go to hell. When I suggested that the world could have as well been created by an alien or giant uncaring monstrosity, he said "Com'on, that's absurd", as if magic wizard Allah was any less absurd.

Most of these religions are sketchy and superficial and fail to address many points (eg, how are animals or plants judged? And what about cavemen that didn't know how to speak and communicate and just hit things with their club? And what about people who are born in such conditions where knowledge is kept hidden to them? What about people who are born physically or mentally ill and can't really help themselves? What about those who are forced to behave in some way? If we really must assume there is a creator, then I'd picture it as some neutral and uncaring entity that wanders in the universe. No hell or heaven, just something that spawns life here and there and moves on).

So my question is: how do you engage in a discussion with these people without it derailing? It's as if they were willfully ignoring or filtering some information, I don't really get it. I'm not really trying to convert them, but rather trying to understand the reasoning that leads them to believe in whatever religion... but no matter how hard I try to understand, their logic is just not in order. Sometimes I'm literally asking them to help me believe in their religion, but every time it's just not enough information to warrant any belief.
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#2
RE: How to discuss religion with believers?
Welcome matey ...

How to discuss with theists?
Isn't that why philosophy was invented? The Study of the unfalsifiable.
Big Grin
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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#3
RE: How to discuss religion with believers?
(December 18, 2018 at 8:55 pm)Scientia Wrote: So my question is: how do you engage in a discussion with these people without it derailing?
Generally speaking, you can't.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#4
RE: How to discuss religion with believers?
Welcome.

'If you could reason with religious people, there would BE no religious people.' - Gregory House

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#5
RE: How to discuss religion with believers?
While I have a B Sc in physics from a university, I worked as an auto mechanic for many years. The same sort of reliance on facts obtains. Wanting to believe that the part I was most interested in replacing (or simply unable to diagnose the problem properly) just didn't cut it, since it wouldn't necessarily fix the vehicle. If a customer comes in and says, "Replace the carburetor", I have legal standing when said customer comes back later complaining that the carburetor didn't fix the problem. That happened to me once. After that, I diagnosed the problem and told the customer what the proper repair would be. If they didn't want that, they were free to take their vehicle elsewhere for "repair". I've even gone so far as to tell them that if I was wrong, that the repair was free. Never once made a free repair. Yep, I was one cocky dude.

BoT, I don't waste my time arguing about religion. I've done it enough that I am convinced that there is no point.
If you get to thinking you’re a person of some influence, try ordering somebody else’s dog around.
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#6
RE: How to discuss religion with believers?
It really depends on the people involved in the discussion.

I have a dear friend who is very, very religious. I know that about her and she knows I don't believe. Have we talked about it? Yes, many times. Her attitude is that it isn't her job to convert me. We have mutual respect for one another and know that we are more than our belief or lack thereof. For over twenty years that's worked for us.


Some people can't hear what doesn't fit into their god belief and it's unlikely I can change that. For those people I have to choose what there is about them that may make continued contact worthwhile.


There's no one size fits all answer.
  
“If you are the smartest person in the room, then you are in the wrong room.” — Confucius
                                      
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#7
RE: How to discuss religion with believers?
Be honest to people. Don't make up definitions for things, then assume they'll accept them. Apply logic and use citations from the Internet or literature you are referring to. If you're using two different standards, there's no point.
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#8
RE: How to discuss religion with believers?
I kudos MAX!

Now if only he can practice what he preaches! Dodgy
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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#9
RE: How to discuss religion with believers?
(December 18, 2018 at 11:03 pm)ignoramus Wrote: I kudos MAX!

Now if only he can practice what he preaches! Dodgy

I have. Smile
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#10
RE: How to discuss religion with believers?
Welcome Woof.

The religious can believe anything they want and I'll accept that they believe it up to a point. Most of the time it's a non issue.

When they want me to validate their belief as reality is when it goes sideways. Sorry, that's a non starter. 

The one's who think they are superior because of their belief(s) are.......... just.......... DICKS.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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