No True Scotsman

[Tiberius]

It's common for non-believers to condemn christianity for atrocities committed or perceived to be committed in the name of christianity. They use this to assert that christianity is an evil force in the world. A christian is defined as one who follows Christ. Therefore I ask if a nation or individual is truly following the teachings of Jesus Christ would they have committed those atrocities?

Most Christians are the first to state that all people (including them) are sinners. Following Christ doesn't mean you cannot do harm, or commit acts that some view as atrocities.

We've had this discussion with numerous Christians on the forum, and I think most of them would agree that in order to be a Christian, you have to believe in Jesus Christ and pray for forgiveness of any sins you commit. Whether sins are forgiven depends entirely on which denomination of Christianity you listen to, but the general core belief is the same.

[Bad Writer]

Telling people to treat their slaves well doesn't really solve the problem of people thinking that owning another Human being is ok. Which the bible didn't get across very well, because historically christians have used the bible to justify slavery.

And still would if given the option.

[Lek]

Most Christians are the first to state that all people (including them) are sinners. Following Christ doesn't mean you cannot do harm, or commit acts that some view as atrocities.

We've had this discussion with numerous Christians on the forum, and I think most of them would agree that in order to be a Christian, you have to believe in Jesus Christ and pray for forgiveness of any sins you commit. Whether sins are forgiven depends entirely on which denomination of Christianity you listen to, but the general core belief is the same.

Sin is an offense against against God. When we sin we go counter to what God requires of us even though forgiveness is always available upon true repentance. The fact is, though, that when a person sins he is going against Christ's teachings. His actions are not caused by him being a christian and it's not the fault of christianity.

[Tiberius]

His actions are not caused by him being a christian and it's not the fault of christianity.

Granted, but I was mainly taking issue with this statement of yours:

"Therefore I ask if a nation or individual is truly following the teachings of Jesus Christ would they have committed those atrocities?"

The answer, as I think I have just demonstrated, is yes. Just because a person is a Christian does not mean they can't commit atrocities.

[Lek]

His actions are not caused by him being a christian and it's not the fault of christianity.

Granted, but I was mainly taking issue with this statement of yours:

"Therefore I ask if a nation or individual is truly following the teachings of Jesus Christ would they have committed those atrocities?"

The answer, as I think I have just demonstrated, is yes. Just because a person is a Christian does not mean they can't commit atrocities.

Well, what I'm saying is that a christian can commit atrocities, but if he does he's not following the teachings of Jesus when he is committing the act. I'm trying to refute the assumption that christianity is bad because christians have committed atrocities. Or maybe they were claiming to be christians, but in reality they were not. In either case, they were not following Christ when were committing the act.

[SteelCurtain]

Sin is an offense against against God. When we sin we go counter to what God requires of us even though forgiveness is always available upon true repentance. The fact is, though, that when a person sins he is going against Christ's teachings. His actions are not caused by him being a christian and it's not the fault of christianity.

Lek, this is not the argument. The argument is not what individuals do in the name of Christianity. It is the harm that the established church does as a whole. The crusades, the inquisition, the dark ages, and currently, the hate-mongering over basic human rights.

The bottom line is that no matter what time you're in, the past contains people that were "not true christians." During the crusades, men were killing thousands of people, doing the righteous work of god. Those men would have been seen as True Christians™. Currently, people who blindly assert that gays shouldn't have the same rights as everyone else are considered True Christians™. In 50 years, all the Christian homophobes will be considered the same way as the True Christians™ of the 60's in the south are considered now, and Christianity will be continuing its war on scientific progress and education, not to mention moving on to the next atrocity that True Christians™ will be on the front lines over, I predict it'll be over allowing transgender folks to go outside or something.

[Mudhammam]

Well, what I'm saying is that a christian can commit atrocities, but if he does he's not following the teachings of Jesus when he is committing the act. I'm trying to refute the assumption that christianity is bad because christians have committed atrocities. Or maybe they were claiming to be christians, but in reality they were not. In either case, they were not following Christ when were committing the act.

Condemning people to hell, for merely being born (and hence, according to the New Testament, being a sinner by nature) is immoral, Lek. Sorry, the core message of Christianity is immoral and all actions that follow from that, while some may be very, very good, are still poisoned by irrational motives, motives that often lead to immoral atrocities. One cannot value human life while tolerating--no, committing one's life to worship of the deity responsible for--the idea that these lives deserve and will face eternal punishment forever and ever... for simply not converting.

[DeistPaladin]

In either case, they were not following Christ when were committing the act.

You've ignored my point that Jesus preached about Hell and the faith-based scheme of salvation central to Christian theology.

Next to the urgency of saving souls from Hell, Jesus' pithy sayings about peace and love are afterthoughts. Hell and salvation are central to the message of Jesus. Hell and salvation inspired the abuses of Christianity. Ergo, yes, Christianity inspired the atrocities.

[Esquilax]

I don't know if it was slavery or indentured servitude. They were not allowed to beat their slaves. Christ said to treat them well.

Another lie: the only rules one is given, in the bible, for how to treat your slaves says that beating them is fine so long as they don't immediately die from it. As for Christ saying to treat them well, that's your second lie in three sentences; there's a parable Jesus tells in the New Testament where he fully acknowledges that the slave in the story will be beaten, and approves of it, as the slave "knew his duty, but refused to do it," adding that if the slave didn't know he was doing anything wrong he should be punished anyway.

Seriously, does this mean you aren't a True Christian, that you lie, and that an atheist is more familiar with your holy book than you are? Why you going against Christ's teachings? hock:

[jesus_wept]

Matthew 10:34-37. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

To be fair to the Christians, this probably wasn't intended to be taken as a call to arms or to insinuate aggression. In actuality, the writer is probably consoling Christians whose beliefs were causing them to be ostracized from their families, society, sometimes even facing physical persecution from the Jewish leaders. The writer is basically saying, "Yes, Jesus said this would happen."

I think the point to note is that, had a Christian said these things today they would disown him and say something like "a true Christian wouldn't say this because Christianity is all about love. God is love, and Jesus told us to love everyone and came to spread peace on earth. True Christians dont hate, tell each other to buy weapons, blah, blah, blah..."

Thus, when it comes to finding a true Christian, even Jesus doesn't make the grade.