Libertarian Socialism

[stonedape]

I don't agree that liberty is not possible on a large scale. It isn't possible (at the moment anyway) in our society because our society is pretty screwed up. Things do need to be expertly managed, micro or macro are just points on a sliding scale.

Yes it is screwed up. It's as much the culture as it is the government. You can't force a culture to change at gunpoint. You have to do it from the principal of self ownership. Rules don't change shit. People do.

I agree that the federal government needs to to its job and do it right. That would include preventing the States Rights fundamentalists from keeping minority Americans away from the voting booth, infringing on the rights of female American's, and forcing the rest of us (Fuck you Texas) to teach our kids Christian-Lunacy-Creationism as science.

Yes, both of those problems are discrimination related. Freedom of religion doesn't mean religion gets to impose on your freedom. But if a stupid christian student doesn't want to learn about evolution, they don't have to I believe in competing independent charter education. But teaching creationism or any other pseudo-science is actually discrimination against christians. They're the ones being dumbed down and oppressed.

It is the States (mostly Republican) that are neglecting the Constitution. (With the help of a Republican SCOTUS). The Federal Government's main failure is letting them get away with it. You think the smaller the government the better. I disagree. The smaller the government the less fight it can put up against mega-corporations. Local schools are fucked up not because of the Department of Education, but because local school boards are run by Nut Cases who think god gave Adam a dinosaur to ride around the Garden. Teachers are neglected because that same School Board flunked Jr. High and is looking to get even. Small government only works when there is a big government standing over them making sure they play by the rules.

I became a juvinile delinquent once they stole my comics and forced me to read Little House on the Prairie. Whenever I cut class it felt like breaking out of prison. Nobody was telling me how I could dress, what I could say or commanding my unquestioned obedience.

Naturally gangs formed. The stupid teachers thought they could break them up. Little had they realized gangs are the result of team work. They could have taught the gangs about craftsmanship and entreprenuership. If they had we wouldn't have the same crime and poverty problem. The black market is what happens when the "free market" blocks out participation from the bottom.

I completely fucking neglected personal entrepreneurship as a right because it isn't one. As long as your personal fucking entrepreneurship meets a market demand without trashing the environment or subjecting workers to sub-standard wages and working conditions, fine. But if history teaches us anything is that the fucking personal entrepreneur is mostly driven by greed, and he doesn't give a rat's ass about anything other than how much profit he can squeeze out of his workers, suppliers, and customers. As long as the Government is keeping the playing field level and fair, this is not a problem. Such a self-centered and harmful personal fucking entrepreneur would soon be out of business; abandoned by workers taking better jobs (or fixed by them starting a union), suppliers getting fairer prices and selling their wares elsewhere, and customers getting better products and serves from the shop down the street.

I don't think you comprehend the lack of self ownership in our current system. Because free association is part of the equation. If the working conditions are unsatisfactory, the workers are within their rights to change their conditions. Or else the "owners" will learn who actually runs "their" business. The govt intervened to compromise on behalf of the ownership class.

If you don't like pollution, you could open a store that only sells eco-friendly products. I try buying eco-friendly, independently owned american products. It's hard because of the wall of paperwork standing between an individual and business.

We could all stop global warming if every real liberal pooled our money together and opened solar farms, thorium and geothermal plants. Oh yeah, we can't. Somebody has a govt protected monopoly on the power grid.

Unfortunately the mega-fucking-personal-entrepreneurs bought the Government with the help of the same Republican controlled SCOTUS. Most of us are seeing our rights flushed down the shitter as a result. Health care run by pharmaceutical companies, HMOs, and insurance companies. (Who make money from a sick society, not a healthy one - and who don't want to insure anyone who is likely to need insurance.) The environment trashed by big energy companies protecting their vested internists with - let us not forget - massive tax breaks from both State and Federal governments. Wall Street gambling our money away (when not buying hookers and coke) and walking away free because they didn't break any "regulations". Our "justice system" has been sold to some personal fucking entrepreneurs who run our prisons, and the result is America has the largest incarceration rate in the world. Ditto for weapons manufacturers, war and gun deaths.

That's because govt is controlled by mega corporations. Not us. Democracy is just a spectator sport. You know big pharma wrote Obamacare. You know Goldman Sachs paid Obamas way to the whitehouse. You know Lockheed Martin and the Carlyle Group are the reason we're bombing the middle east. You know that's why the warpigs are looking at Russia like it's dinner. You know Elizabeth Warren won't be any different. I've heard her preach about corruption, but hasn't actually done anything about it.

The free market and Private Market are two different things. The republicrats only care about "trickle down" economics. Wealth is supposed to trickle up, down, left, right and forward.

Getting rich at the expense of everyone else in the community has nothing to do with liberty. So, fuck off ...

Your right it fucking doesn't! You just don't know why or how to change it. You seem to be under the impression praying to the benevolent democrats will change anything. They are not on your side. They're just republicans that think pro-choice is just a stance on abortion. They don't care about the victimless criminals (including weapon charges) rotting in a dungeon.

What about your choices. What makes you think a nationalist entity can make your choices for you? What makes you think your best intentions shouldn't be your choice?

I guarantee you we wouldn't be speaking to eachother on corporate owned devices assembled at foxconn, from conflict materials mined by slave labor if we all believed in and practiced self ownership.

---

I already buy independent and organic. Because I look at lables. This is how regulation actually works. The more people demand ethical products, the more we'll be supplied with them. Shitty corporate products will go the way of horse meat, rotten milk and leaded gas. You just need to be a socially conscious buyer to create a socially conscious market.



This is why reulation is a joke. Just lower your energy consumption and save up for a solar panel or something. Buy a car with good gas mileage and carpool as often as possible. The government will not stop climate change.



The centralized power structure is a Xanatos Gambit. Using the govt to control corporations just puts the govt under corporate control.

We need to avoid that whole mess entirely.

[downbeatplumb]

Has anarcho-capitalism ever been tried? I don't think so, I've never heard of abolished states with a capitalist system - Anarcho capitalism assumes that there is NO state and a full free market system.

For examples of a what unfettered caplitalism look like see the Roman Empire, The British Empire the conquistadores. Basically all the bad bits of history.

And for an examples of a non-state see Somalia.

This is what Anarcho-cpitalism looks like. Hell on earth.

if everything would fit it would be perfect - I'm talking about utopia here, by saying Ancap is better than Anarcho socialism, by far.

No it would be the strong oppressing/enslaving the weak as it always is when this is tried. It would be the rich Mill owners using people and casting them out when injured or old.

BTW, tell me about societies that work perfectly using a socialist model? China, Cuba, N Korea?

Uk, Sweden in fact most of Europe is doing fine using the socialist model.

Don't bring the northern European countries as a model - Those countries are a perfect example of capitalism working with regulations, their growth is due to capitalism, they are not socialist

Capitalism forms a part of it, it is a blend of socialism and capitalism and I will not be restrained from using them as an example just because you realise it weakens your argument.

[Dystopia]

No it strengthens my argument because the economies of Sweden and other northern European countries would not survive or grow without capitalism - What you see there is not a socialist model, just a more socialized control of capitalism - BTW, if you do not defend reaching communism as a goal, you're not a socialist for me, just a social democrat. Europe is not socialist, that is such a wrong claim - Europe is capitalist just like the USA and the rest of the developed world, it's just a much more controlled and balanced capitalism - Do you really think that in a socialist society offshore accounts would still exist? Is there a free market in the UK? Yes? Then they're not socialist, just a little more social

In fact, I remember seeing that in Norway most companies are actually private and there's a free market, as long as you have a free market like everywhere else, you're still capitalist - I want to see a model of a real socialist and not pseudo socialist (more like social-democrat for those countries) working perfectly

Talking about the examples, I'm talking about stateless capitalism - But you don't seem to be getting the point - Humanity is not ready for anarchy (probably will never be), let alone for pure capitalism - When humanity is ready for both, it could work, that's all I'm saying, I'm not advocating using that system right away..

[downbeatplumb]

No it strengthens my argument because the economies of Sweden and other northern European countries would not survive or grow without capitalism - What you see there is not a socialist model, just a more socialized control of capitalism -

You seem to be making my point but claiming its the opposite. You can't say more socialised control of capitalism without saying socialised.

BTW, if you do not defend reaching communism as a goal, you're not a socialist for me, just a social democrat. Europe is not socialist,

It's socialism mixed with capitalism. Pure caplitalism and pure communism are both bad ideas what is needed is a healthy mix.
All services should be state run non-profit and shops should be capitalist.

that is such a wrong claim - Europe is capitalist just like the USA and the rest of the developed world, it's just a much more controlled and balanced capitalism - Do you really think that in a socialist society offshore accounts would still exist? Is there a free market in the UK? Yes? Then they're not socialist, just a little more social

Did I ever argue for pure socialism? why are you pushing for extremes. Extremes don't work.

In fact, I remember seeing that in Norway most companies are actually private and there's a free market, as long as you have a free market like everywhere else, you're still capitalist - I want to see a model of a real socialist and not pseudo socialist (more like social-democrat for those countries) working perfectly

So?

Talking about the examples, I'm talking about stateless capitalism - But you don't seem to be getting the point - Humanity is not ready for anarchy (probably will never be), let alone for pure capitalism - When humanity is ready for both, it could work, that's all I'm saying, I'm not advocating using that system right away..

Capitalism is amoral. It has nothing to say on social justice or helping each other, just about the accumulation of wealth that's all. "it's just business" is the cliché that is used to justify all kinds of evil.

Socialism is all about social equality and society working together. There is a place for making money and a place for making sure society works. What is good for one thing is not always good for the other so a healthy mix of both is needed along with firm regulation.

When capitalism is unchecked you end up with depressions and financial crashes every time.

[TaraJo]

Anarcho anything=Politics for hipsters who don't understand politics

[stonedape]

Anarcho anything=Politics for hipsters who don't understand politics

I do understand politics. That's why I know the world would be better without politicians.

[TaraJo]

Anarcho anything=Politics for hipsters who don't understand politics

I do understand politics. That's why I know the world would be better without politicians.

Then who would you suggest establish the rules and regulations we need to have a functioning society?

[stonedape]

Then who would you suggest establish the rules and regulations we need to have a functioning society?

You, me, everybody.
What really matters is the quality of our society. That comes from us, not from rulers. Not to say there shouldn't be rules, but they really are up to us to enforce. You can't depend on an imaginary authority figure to make anything happen. You can only count on your community.

[The Grand Nudger]

Healthcare, law enforcement, safety, labor and education is up to the states. With that said the states could do better. Each county could do better. Each city could do better.

The resources required for states (and counties, and cities) to do those things are not equally distributed (resources et all are not equally distributed on this planet nor have they ever been). You'd be consigning folks in Alabama to a life of misery and sickness while allowing folks in Mass to live happily and healthily all the while. We've already tried that.....btw.

Count me out, that's the "fuck you got mine" vision of America which I absolutely abhor. We're either in this together or the whole thing crumbles. I'd rather not see us turn into a collection of ruinous states while we hammer away at the responsibility of those patently incapable of handling those things mentioned. A properly functioning fed could manage something like healthcare, while the city council of Podunk, Illinois is unlikely to even be -able- to rise to the challenge (even if they really, really.....really wanted to).

[stonedape]

The resources required for states (and counties, and cities) to do those things are not equally distributed (resources et all are not equally distributed on this planet nor have they ever been). You'd be consigning folks in Alabama to a life of misery and sickness while allowing folks in Mass to live happily and healthily all the while. We've already tried that.....btw.

Count me out, that's the "fuck you got mine" vision of America which I absolutely abhor. We're either in this together or the whole thing crumbles. I'd rather not see us turn into a collection of ruinous states while we hammer away at the responsibility of those patently incapable of handling those things mentioned. A properly functioning fed could manage something like healthcare, while the city council of Podunk, Illinois is unlikely to even be -able- to rise to the challenge (even if they really, really.....really wanted to).

Count me out of the "fuck you got mine" vision of America too. But you need to understand that individuality is our equality. Equality is each community having the power to make their own decisions. I don't want anybody making my decisions and I don't want to make anybody else's decisions.

I'm a libertarian socialist because I want my tax money to fund doctor owned healthcare. I want to fund competing teacher owned schools. I want to fund a green infrastructure. I want to fund homeless shelters and free rehabilitation clinics. I don't want to fund WW3. I don't want to trap victimless criminals in a cage. I don't want hard working refugees to be treated like "illegals". I don't want kids to be treated like criminals as I was. I don't want to fund ISIS, so I'll have to fund fighting them. Nobody asked me if I wanted to live in a constitution free zone.

I wish I could convince that southern hellscape called the bible belt to agree with me on healthcare and education. Does that mean I get to make their decisions for them? I don't want them to make decisions for me. I do not get to have it both ways. The bible belt sucks, always did suck and always will suck. I have no say in the matter. All I can do is encourage the oppressed to vote with their feet.