Gods supposed perfection

[vorlon13]

DANGER: DANGER: DANGER:

"Free Will" dissertation coming from one of the morons in 5....4.....3......2.....1................


(Free Will is god's Get-Out-Of-Fuck-Up-Free card.)

Holy crap for real. I have a JW friend who tries to explain this to me all the time, that he created free will and it's our choice to not follow him. Again today we had this debate, but I stumped her finally, she left with no answer and I was shocked haha. Even though we were given free will, how did the evil that tempted us away from him come to be unless he himself created it and loosed it upon us. If they were supposedly perfect, then wouldn't questioning God actually be a good thing and not a bad? She has no answer yet, and I eagerly await what she does end up saying about it

Let us know if you get her head to explode.

[MistressD]

Minimalist I almost did, she was shaking hard during this conversation and I think it was quite tough for her to admit she did not have the answer. She tried to tell me that it was because eve was easily manipulated, weak, and damn straight I had an issue with that as I asked her to show me where it says in the bible that. I went over the whole passage twice with her and said it didn't mention even once how it is the serpent chose eve for this task. But that is a different debate! Then she tells me it was satan, in the form of a serpent who put the idea to disobey in her mind. I asked her how did satan come up with this idea to disobey, since God also created him as a perfect angel. If God created these perfect beings without sin, how did sin come to be? She claims to have studied the bible thoroughly for 30 years, how she does not have the answer to such an obvious question is beyond me.

[Minimalist]

Holy crap for real. I have a JW friend who tries to explain this to me all the time, that he created free will and it's our choice to not follow him.

As LV was suggesting they need to compartmentalize their god. He knows all, sees all, is all-powerful yada, yada, yada but there are lines between these powers. So god KNOWS that his creations will fail him because he is omniscient but he makes them anyway because......

My answer is that he is a dick.

Thus, at the end of Gen. 1 we get....

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

And then, a couple of pages later the fucker is drowning everybody who disappointed him. Some fucking god. More like a city councilman with a bad attitude.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

@Boru

Not so fast speedracer,
How can you as a fallible human being possibly know whether this better world which you imagine is self consistent and hence possible at all?

Because an infallible being is incapable of bad design (by definition). If, as the theists (the Christian variety, anyroad), God loves us and wishes none to come to harm, then I - fallible though I am - should not be able to perceive any flaws in the design.

Thus, if I can perceive flaws and imagine a better way round the houses, then I'm better than God at designing a world intended for the improvement of human beings (which is ostensibly God's plan).

I can forestall the inevitable objection of 'The flaws you perceive may not be flaws at all' by turning it round: If I can perceive the flaws, they MUST be flaws, else I wouldn't be able to perceive them in the first place (the option is that God is a malicious trickster).

Boru

[orangebox21]

I guess perhaps I address this question to theists...if God is so perfect, and created Adam and eve as perfect in his image, then why did they disobey him? If they were created without sin then how is it they came to sin? I'm not talking about the stupid tree of knowledge, I'm asking how it was they were so susceptible to satan? Which leads me to another question, God created satan himself, from what I understand he was a perfect angel, then how is it he also came to sin? This seems to me God is in fact fallible, or else deliberately set us up to fail, seeing as how sin should not exist unless he made it so. As a burgeoning atheist, this is one of the biggest issues I have with theism. I wish to hear as many points of view as possible on this one, not just Christians please.

The answer may offend you, but....

Isaiah 45:9 (9"Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker-- An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?' Or the thing you are making say, 'He has no hands '?) is quoted and expounded in Romans 9:16-24

16It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Often we want God to be how we want Him to be, act how we want Him to act, so as to serve our wills. We want to create a God in our image. This is the perspective of humanism interpreting scripture, namely "It should be all about ME, all for MY benefit." Well, who are you oh man that you should.....

[Anomalocaris]

I guess perhaps I address this question to theists...if God is so perfect, and created Adam and eve as perfect in his image, then why did they disobey him? If they were created without sin then how is it they came to sin? I'm not talking about the stupid tree of knowledge, I'm asking how it was they were so susceptible to satan? Which leads me to another question, God created satan himself, from what I understand he was a perfect angel, then how is it he also came to sin? This seems to me God is in fact fallible, or else deliberately set us up to fail, seeing as how sin should not exist unless he made it so. As a burgeoning atheist, this is one of the biggest issues I have with theism. I wish to hear as many points of view as possible on this one, not just Christians please.

In my opinion, the idea of God's perfection is purely the result of the marriage of idiotic supertitious awe and a discreditable prostrating obsequiousness.

One might add the Jews, who invented this very same yahweh before whom christians are so disgustingly obsequious, had the good sense to be rather less obsequious than the christians before the imaginary lord they imposed upon themselves for the purpose of feeling superior to their neighbors.

[bladevalant546]

Guys, we can easily /thread by a simple question.

What is Perfection and can you define it?

[Anomalocaris]

"Perfection" is a practically meaningless term whose use reflect smallness of mind, and whose purpose in use is kissing up.

[Chad32]

The answer may offend you, but....

Isaiah 45:9 (9"Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker-- An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?' Or the thing you are making say, 'He has no hands '?) is quoted and expounded in Romans 9:16-24

16It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Often we want God to be how we want Him to be, act how we want Him to act, so as to serve our wills. We want to create a God in our image. This is the perspective of humanism interpreting scripture, namely "It should be all about ME, all for MY benefit." Well, who are you oh man that you should.....

Why would we not ask such things? We are free willed and curious people. Why should we just take someone's word for it that they are all knowing and powerful? Kings will say they have a divine right to rule, but they can be toppled like any other if the people are abused enough. That's how Human society works. We need a system that benefits us, and the strong minority may like to push the weak majority down to maintain power, but eventually the weak majority will rise up and overthrow an oppressive ruler. Why? Because they ask questions about their current state of affairs. Why would we not do the same with the idea of a god? Especially since the best idea we have of god comes from people who claim to be inspired by him.

Should a child ever question his parents? Yes. Should a creation ever question his creator, if that was possible? Yes. I know those verses are meant to be rhetorical, and the implied answer is no, but I say the obvious answer should be yes. We should always question, because that's how we gain knowledge and progress as a species.

[robvalue]

Free will....

There's this crap argument that evil exists because god wanted us to have free will. And with free will, there is the possibility of evil.

Bullshit. He could have given only the ability, motivation and thoughts to do good things, and to always be happy doing them. We could have a huge choice of things, but they would all be good. He makes the rules, he could do this. But he'd rather give us shit hurtful options, knowing we will take them.

I have dreams like that, where I'm a sort of wonderland, free to do what I want, but I only want to do wonderful things, and I feel amazingly happy.