How to argue against this claim

[downbeatplumb]

Hi All,

So Obviously the Bible and god ways are full of evil deeds, and EVIL agenda
Slaves, murders and much more

Some Religious person would say,
Yeah but think of a child that sees a doctor cutting a man legs to save his life.
So like us the child lack of understanding the big picture.

Please give smart way to explain this comparison

Thanks

Before the development of the modern scientific approach Doctors would regularly cut into people for reasons not unlike religious reasons.
Now days the reasons for a Doctor cutting into a person would be supported by mountains of evidence. So tell the child the disease and point them in the direction of google.

[Lek]

No wonder it's frustrating. You've all been rambling on in this thread about how terrible the God is who you don't believes exists.

When did we say he is terrible? We didn't come up with the leg chopping scenario. Also we are talking about the concept of the christian god, and this concept does exist in case you didn't know...

You have 345 posts in the forum and you're seriously asking when you (meaning posters on this forum) have ever said that God is terrible? Come on. Give me a break!

[LastPoet]

You have 345 posts in the forum and you're seriously asking when you (meaning posters on this forum) have ever said that God is terrible? Come on. Give me a break!

Well, to be completely honest, the christian god couldn't possible exist giving all the bullshit you believers have been piling up over the centuries. Do you understant the principle of reductio ad absurdum?

[AceBoogie]

The problem is even when you point out the ridiculousness of the idea that 'god' must allow people to be hurt, tortured or even murdered for the sake of the 'big picture,' the person will often retort that though this seems cruel and nonsensical, we cannot understand god's plans because we are human. They simply dismiss the point that you make and rationalize the idea by saying something along the lines of, "I am not god and I do not pretend to understand god's plan, none of us possibly can!"

Some of the things that people say to justify the ridiculousness of many religious claims are just funny. Another point people will make is that evil is not god's will but man's will. Then comes the problem of free will vs a predetermined fate. So we either have no free will and EVERYTHING is god's plan, or we have free will and god has no influence over our lives. But there cannot be both and so many religious people fail to realize this: free will and fate CANNOT coexist at the same time. At least not in my mind. It's a funny thing to bring up the concept of evil and how it can coexist with a loving, compassionate god.

[Aoi Magi]

When did we say he is terrible? We didn't come up with the leg chopping scenario. Also we are talking about the concept of the christian god, and this concept does exist in case you didn't know...

You have 345 posts in the forum and you're seriously asking when you (meaning posters on this forum) have ever said that God is terrible? Come on. Give me a break!

I was talking in context to the current thread, not the entire forum, since you yourself claimed that we called god terrible in this thread, but I guess you have a hard time keeping track of what you write, so let's leave it be.

The point is, yes, the concept of christian god is terrible, and so are many of his supposed actions. Would like to clarify why the concept is not terrible according to you?

---

"I am not god and I do not pretend to understand god's plan, none of us possibly can!"

Then the question becomes: "Why do you claim to understand what he wants?"

Some of the things that people say to justify the ridiculousness of many religious claims are just funny. Another point people will make is that evil is not god's will but man's will. Then comes the problem of free will vs a predetermined fate. So we either have no free will and EVERYTHING is god's plan, or we have free will and god has no influence over our lives. But there cannot be both and so many religious people fail to realize this: free will and fate CANNOT coexist at the same time. At least not in my mind. It's a funny thing to bring up the concept of evil and how it can coexist with a loving, compassionate god.

If you are talking about OT god, you can't use "loving and compassionate" in the same sentence.

[Brian37]

The problem is even when you point out the ridiculousness of the idea that 'god' must allow people to be hurt, tortured or even murdered for the sake of the 'big picture,' the person will often retort that though this seems cruel and nonsensical, we cannot understand god's plans because we are human. They simply dismiss the point that you make and rationalize the idea by saying something along the lines of, "I am not god and I do not pretend to understand god's plan, none of us possibly can!"

Some of the things that people say to justify the ridiculousness of many religious claims are just funny. Another point people will make is that evil is not god's will but man's will. Then comes the problem of free will vs a predetermined fate. So we either have no free will and EVERYTHING is god's plan, or we have free will and god has no influence over our lives. But there cannot be both and so many religious people fail to realize this: free will and fate CANNOT coexist at the same time. At least not in my mind. It's a funny thing to bring up the concept of evil and how it can coexist with a loving, compassionate god.

They are not funny to me because people act on these absurdities to their own detriment and to the detriment of others.

I find it sad that adults of all religions cant see that the bad in life is an unfortunate ratio in nature, and the real way to reduce bad things is to study them and find answers to solve those problems rather than chalk them up to fictional super heros and fictional boogiemen.

[Lek]

It is not a real god we are railing against, it is your bad use of logic that falsely leads you to the conclusion that this god exists and is moral.

We have to argue this myth because believers act on these beliefs and vote and have weapons.

Tell us why you are not afraid of Muslims threats of hell? You are not afraid of their hell and rightfully so. But you would be concerned if those followers acted out in violence or made laws that oppressed you.

We no more believe in your God or your Satan than you believe that Lex Luther is real and can use Kriptionite to kill Superman. But you would be rightfully concerned if an adult in real life went around claiming Lex Luther was real.

Now here is a list of arguments many of us here have run into with a variety of religions and not just you or your god claim or your book.

LIST OF FALLACIOUS ARGUMENTS..

1 Quoting a book to prove a book........is known as "circular reasoning" all religions do this.

2. Appeal to authority.......If you lived in ancient Rome by proxy of the Caesar's belief it would mandate that he is right because he holds power.

3. Appeal to tradition....If that worked then the Ancient Egyptians would have been right because they believed in their polytheistic gods for 3,000 years.

4.Appeal to popularity.....If that worked then we should all be Muslims because Islam has the most members.

Now again mind you, we do not simply pick on your religion alone. We do because in the west that is what we run into the most. But we take on all sorts of polytheistic god claims, monotheistic, and even new age woo.

I apply the same skepticism to all religions.

Ok. I can understand your reasons for arguing that God is evil and unjust. Your list of fallacious arguments is also correct. None of these are adequate to prove the existence of God. All you in this forum have taught me a lot. All that stuff that I would bring up was just stuff that I used to support my own and others beliefs. Before I joined this forum I used to think that I could convince someone to believe in God through natural reasoning, but now I don't think that's possible. Anyone I've talked to or read about, who went from being an atheist to a christian, never never said it was because they determined it from science or history. I've come to realize that until a person accepts the existence of the supernatural, they can't be convinced to believe in a supernatural God. You do have to take a chance to believe. God didn't come about by natural means and he's not confined to the natural world.

I can use natural arguments to support my belief in God, but not to prove it. I believe the existence of the cosmos, which science can't explain, to be evidence of God. I believe in miracles and demonic possession, which have been attested to by people I trust, and other stuff like that. Most of all, I see him working in my life. If someone does not eventually experience a relationship with God, then I can understand why they would walk away from christianity, but you have to take that step off the cliff in order to experience it.

On the other hand, I've never heard an atheist give a natural argument that disproved the existence of God. It's all just inconclusive arguments that they use to support their unbelief. I see atheists as living inside of a box. They're limited to living in this natural world and can't accept the existence of anything else. You have this image of a one-dimensional being that you think God should be. Sorry if it makes you hate him, but God gets angry and he killed a bunch of people. If they wanted to be with him, then they are with him now--eternally happy. If they didn't want to be with him, then they are not. He loves us and he's holding his arms out to us.

[AceBoogie]

They are not funny to me because people act on these absurdities to their own detriment and to the detriment of others.

I find it sad that adults of all religions cant see that the bad in life is an unfortunate ratio in nature, and the real way to reduce bad things is to study them and find answers to solve those problems rather than chalk them up to fictional super heros and fictional boogiemen.

Not funny haha but funny as in peculiar.

And not only is it sad but it's dangerous too. Many religious people simply do not live in the realm of reality or fact and there are many of us that DO and we truly are trying to make life good for not only ourselves but everyone else involved in this whole 'life thing.' To simply chalk something up to 'god did it' is not only sad but irresponsible and possibly dangerous.

[Aoi Magi]

Anyone I've talked to or read about, who went from being an atheist to a christian, never never said it was because they determined it from science or history. I've come to realize that until a person accepts the existence of the supernatural, they can't be convinced to believe in a supernatural God. You do have to take a chance to believe. God didn't come about by natural means and he's not confined to the natural world.

I can use natural arguments to support my belief in God, but not to prove it. I believe the existence of the cosmos, which science can't explain, to be evidence of God. I believe in miracles and demonic possession, which have been attested to by people I trust, and other stuff like that. Most of all, I see him working in my life. If someone does not eventually experience a relationship with God, then I can understand why they would walk away from christianity, but you have to take that step off the cliff in order to experience it.

You do realize that most of the atheists here started off as Christians, right? And something "science cannot explain" isn't god by default, ever heard of "god-of-the-gaps"?

On the other hand, I've never heard an atheist give a natural argument that disproved the existence of God. It's all just inconclusive arguments that they use to support their unbelief. I see atheists as living inside of a box. They're limited to living in this natural world and can't accept the existence of anything else. You have this image of a one-dimensional being that you think God should be. Sorry if it makes you hate him, but God gets angry and he killed a bunch of people. If they wanted to be with him, then they are with him now--eternally happy. If they didn't want to be with him, then they are not. He loves us and he's holding his arms out to us.

Whoa there, slow down a bit. There's no point discussing burden of proof with you I guess, but at least understand this much, our "unbelief" is because your claims have been shown to be false and we continue to prove them false while you just shift the goal-post further away. Also how exactly do you know "they are with him now"? If you believe you have some extra-sensory ability to sense that, please seek professional help before it's too late...

[LastPoet]

On the other hand, I've never heard an atheist give a natural argument that disproved the existence of God. It's all just inconclusive arguments that they use to support their unbelief. I see atheists as living inside of a box. They're limited to living in this natural world and can't accept the existence of anything else. You have this image of a one-dimensional being that you think God should be. Sorry if it makes you hate him, but God gets angry and he killed a bunch of people. If they wanted to be with him, then they are with him now--eternally happy. If they didn't want to be with him, then they are not. He loves us and he's holding his arms out to us.

You are making the claim, put up or shut the fuck up. You have the right to your beliefs, but you don't get to use those raving mental accidents to tell others how to live.

Whatever your god is, you are nothing but a liar, because you truly don't know, and you are claiming what such a thing is, without any proof, just pulling shit out of your ass as you go along.

It makes me hate the fact that idiots can look at genocide and still think it was right because god said so, it says in the bible, written by god, because it says so in the book.

Fucking idiot, nothing is holding out any arms to us. There might yet be a 'heaven', but we will have to work for it, by ourselves, and not cling to old supersticions and fantasies of superheros and magic. Grow the fuck up.