Garden of Eden was a setup...

[dyresand]

Doesn't that go against the idea of Jesus being the only way into heaven? If they all get into heaven, what motivation do you have to not go around killing the babies of all non believers? That was the general idea in the old testament, when Yahweh killied or ordered the killing of babies.

god would just make sure the baby killer got into heaven too.

[Tonus]

Also I want to point out, that David's murder isn't the big deal compared to what he did as a war lord.

But it's just as good an example of god's warped 'justice' as any other. David either rapes or commits adultery with Bathsheba, and then tries to get her husband (currently fighting a war!) to sleep with her to cover his tracks. When the husband refuses out of loyalty to his fellow soldiers, David arranges for him to be killed on the battlefield. The penalty for all of these transactions?

God kills his newborn baby. Oh, and he forces David to go on the lam for a short time before returning him to the throne. Bathsheba becomes his wife, which means that depending on her part in this, she either wound up marrying her rapist, or the penalty for adultery in her case was to become the queen. But hey, we can't know god's mind, so all of this stuff must be okay!

[bennyboy]

Also I want to point out, that David's murder isn't the big deal compared to what he did as a war lord.

But it's just as good an example of god's warped 'justice' as any other. David either rapes or commits adultery with Bathsheba, and then tries to get her husband (currently fighting a war!) to sleep with her to cover his tracks. When the husband refuses out of loyalty to his fellow soldiers, David arranges for him to be killed on the battlefield. The penalty for all of these transactions?

God kills his newborn baby. Oh, and he forces David to go on the lam for a short time before returning him to the throne. Bathsheba becomes his wife, which means that depending on her part in this, she either wound up marrying her rapist, or the penalty for adultery in her case was to become the queen. But hey, we can't know god's mind, so all of this stuff must be okay!

epic

---

If there really IS a God, then your willful ignorance of the obvious must be an offense to him/her/it.

Dead babies

/thread

Okay. Since we're critiquing God, tell me this. First of all, we are not allowed to kill babies and it would be a grievous sin for us to do so. Are those babies who were killed happy now or not? Would they have been happier to live longer lives on earth than they are now?

I dont know about all that. But I do know that babies get sick, suffer, and die, and that a supposedly all-powerful God is either unwilling or unable to prevent that suffering.

[Simon Moon]

Did they get into heaven if they weren't brought to Jesus and baptized first?

Sure.

So, wouldn't the most moral thing a Christian could do is to not procreate?

For every child a Christian has that lives to adulthood, the greater chance that person will loose his/her faith. Why would a moral Christian want to take a chance that their children will end up in hell for eternity?

Why wasn't Andrea Yates a hero for ending her children's lives before they had the possibility of ending up in hell? According to her Christian beliefs (and yours) the children are now in heaven. She sacrificed her eternity for the sake of her children's.

[Esquilax]

Okay. Since we're critiquing God, tell me this. First of all, we are not allowed to kill babies and it would be a grievous sin for us to do so. Are those babies who were killed happy now or not? Would they have been happier to live longer lives on earth than they are now?

You're being simplistic, but I don't blame you; your religion conditions you not to think too closely about heaven.

Do people age in heaven? If yes, then the people who have been there longest are in some trouble. If not, then those babies are going to be forever locked in infant form, unable to comprehend anything, or learn, or grow. Doesn't sound like paradise to me.

But let's say you can halt and advance your aging at will in heaven; those babies would be thoroughly unrecognizable, psychologically, when they grow. Who we are as people is informed by our pasts and childhood; just growing up instantaneously wouldn't make them adults, it'd just make them children in adult bodies.

And if they grow up naturally there? Same problem. No human being in history has ever matured in an environment like heaven; the universal lessons we all learn growing up- about mortality, physical and mental harm, about not always getting what we want, about having to work for our happiness, about charity and caring for others, even about the structure of families, and so many others- are completely nonexistent in heaven. The very concepts don't come into play. Any child growing up in that environment would be utterly alien, dare I say stunted even. I'd remind you that the closest analogues to this scenario we get on Earth are spoiled brats, but even they have some concept of the applicability of these things.

God didn't just murder babies, or take them to heaven. He robbed them of their capacity to be human beings. Whether they would want to go back to Earth is irrelevant, because they would have no concept of what they're missing. And they missed out on a lot. The real question is, should they want to go back?

[abaris]

The penalty for all of these transactions?

God kills his newborn baby.

Yes, that's a nice detail.

[Chad32]

Sure.

So, wouldn't the most moral thing a Christian could do is to not procreate?

For every child a Christian has that lives to adulthood, the greater chance that person will loose his/her faith. Why would a moral Christian want to take a chance that their children will end up in hell for eternity?

Why wasn't Andrea Yates a hero for ending her children's lives before they had the possibility of ending up in hell? According to her Christian beliefs (and yours) the children are now in heaven. She sacrificed her eternity for the sake of her children's.

There's also the idea that people who haven't previously heard about Jesus automatically get the chance to be in heaven when they die, so why would any christian want to be a missionary? I know there are groups of people who believe that babies don't automatically get into heaven, because otherwise we wouldn't have people baptising infants and toddlers.

[abaris]

There's also the idea that people who haven't previously heard about Jesus automatically get the chance to be in heaven when they die, so why would any christian want to be a missionary? I know there are groups of people who believe that babies don't automatically get into heaven, because otherwise we wouldn't have people baptising infants and toddlers.

I don't know what the Catholic stance on all of this is nowadays, but when I was a child I seem to remember unbaptised babies going to purgatory.

But the Catholics keep changing their doctrine more often than their altar boys. And I wouldn't know anything about evagelicals and their view of the matter at hand. Probably 40.000 different opinions.

[dyresand]

There's also the idea that people who haven't previously heard about Jesus automatically get the chance to be in heaven when they die, so why would any christian want to be a missionary? I know there are groups of people who believe that babies don't automatically get into heaven, because otherwise we wouldn't have people baptising infants and toddlers.

I don't know what the Catholic stance on all of this is nowadays, but when I was a child I seem to remember unbaptised babies going to purgatory.

But the Catholics keep changing their doctrine more often than their altar boys. And I wouldn't know anything about evagelicals and their view of the matter at hand. Probably 40.000 different opinions.

The pope now is like have sex populate condoms are bad then he pokes a hole into one. then pretty much a aids torn country who was getting better well you can guess it they were dumb enough to believe the pope. Allowing members of the chuch to rape children and get it covered up sadly this is nothing new it still happens. Not to recently of this year a catholic church member was arrested for money laundering. Child trafficking. Also murder and wow and sadly its not gong to end unless religion goes away for good.

[robvalue]

God could just put the baby straight into heaven. Instead he has it born and then die very quickly, traumatising everyone involved. What a prick.