"But what about the moderates?"

[Smaug]

Would you call someone who followed their employee handbook as accurately as possible a radical or extremist? I'd call them a good employee.

Exactly. Only their job is attacking infidels or turning them into faithbots like themselves.

[xpastor]

Would you call someone who followed their employee handbook as accurately as possible a radical or extremist? I'd call them a good employee.

That's a catchy analogy, but I think it breaks down at a couple of points. One problem is that the handbook is contradictory at a number of points. Imagine an employee handbook which said on the one hand, "Give all the time they want to any potential client" and on the other hand "Don't waste time on people who don't seem likely to sign a big contract."

With religion it's even more complicated than that. One of the imams on the show always spoke of Islam rather than the Quran. Of course he insisted that Islam is a religion of peace and the Prophet was a man of peace, which left me wondering if he was ignorant, self-deceived or a liar. He did speak about the need for "interpretations" of the Quran, which may suggest he was self-deceived.

BTW, did anyone listen to the 5 minutes of audio?

It was interesting and disturbing that the caller said he left Islam because there was too much radicalization in every mosque he attended. He added that there were two messages, a peaceful one when there was someone they did not recognize and a much more violent one among themselves.

He posed a few questions to the imams, but unfortunately there was just a minute left in the show, not enough time to answer unless they wanted to admit the worst.

The caller asked if it would be safe for him to go to a Muslim country and admit to being an apostate. I think we all know the answer to that. In fact, he said, even in Canada he keeps a low profile about his beliefs.

In his last comments he really nailed the heart of the problem. He said that unless the imams would acknowledge that there is a problem with the text itself of the hadith with their violent interpretations of the Quran, nothing would be accomplished by continuing to pretend the problem was with radical Muslims who had mental problems or drug problems.

FYI, the hadith are supposedly authoritative summaries of the teaching of Mohammed which clarify passages in the Quaran.

[xpastor]

Here's another reason that Muslim moderates are few and far between.

Amnesty International reports concerning our staunch ally Saudi Arabia:

In May 2014, Raif Badawi was sentenced to 10 years behind bars, 1,000 lashes, a 10-year travel ban, and a lifetime ban from appearing in the media. He was convicted of violating Saudi Arabia's draconian information technology law and "insulting Islam." The conviction stems from number of articles Raif wrote and published on his site "Saudi Arabian Liberals," which he founded as a forum for social and political debate. Raif also refused to remove other Saudi writers' articles from the site.

Raif Badawi is a Prisoner of Conscience, imprisoned solely for peacefully expressing his beliefs. He is not alone - since 2011 the Saudi Arabian authorities have imprisoned dozens of prominent human rights activists and dissenting voices as part of a campaign of repression in the name of security.

If you go to this page, you can send an email to the King of Saudi Arabia (as I did) asking him to quash the charges against Badawi.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Saudi Arabia is a case study for why religion, government, and the law should never ride in the same cart.

[DeistPaladin]

Saudi Arabia is a case study for why religion, government, and the law should never ride in the same cart.

Religion should not ride in any cart except for the mortuary corpse gurney as it travels to its ultimate destination, a grave site next to Zeus and Odin in the cemetery of forgotten gods.

[FatAndFaithless]

Unfortunately, the Saudi "government" seems to be the violent drug dealing thug in class that the students put up with because we're addicted to his products.

If I could change one thing about the Middle East situation, it would certainly be breaking free of the Saudi oil leash. It would remove so much incentive for joining wars in the region..

[dyresand]

Saudi Arabia is a case study for why religion, government, and the law should never ride in the same cart.

If America was a christian nation we would be in the same boat.

[robvalue]

I think moderates are the worst of the lot. They claim to really believe in God, but feel they have the authority to ignore his direct instructions with impunity.

God could fart in your face and you'd still suck his dick.

It's a statement I'm working on that represents the "God is good no matter what he does" mentality.

[xpastor]

I think moderates are the worst of the lot. They claim to really believe in God, but feel they have the authority to ignore his direct instructions with impunity.

I think you are being too harsh on the moderates. I can't speak with authority on Muslim moderates, but I have plenty of experience with Christians.

The ordinary pew warmers in a moderate church don't really read the Bible; they just get their attention directed to the warm fuzzy passages. In fact, this is largely true even in denominations like my old one where the inerrancy of Scripture is formally accepted but they are trying to incorporate modern values. In denominations like my old one, the clergy have a choice between suspending rational thought or developing a massive case of cognitive dissonance.

The clergy in moderate (liberal) denominations have all sorts of ways of getting around the literal meaning of the evil passages, usually something about progressive revelation or God having to work through fallible human beings. I don't buy it of course, and I still think they are giving cover to the raving fundies by claiming the Bible in some sense contains the word of God.

The important point is that moderates are generally nice people with progressive views. I've said before, and I will repeat: If some powerful genie offered me a choice between converting all the fundamentalists to moderate religion or converting all the moderate religionists to atheism, I would choose the frst option in a heartbeat.

[robvalue]

Yes you're right, I didn't literally mean it, I was taking it to extremes partly for my own amusement and to hammer home my ludicrous points. I'd rather live in a world with moderates than radicals any day.

I was narrating from the point of view of a God looking down at his followers, finding these moderates to not be quite the ticket.