The problem with prayer

[CoxRox]

Chatpilot, I understand the points you are making. I do not think it is an 'ego' issue that believers 'believe' they are important to God. Jesus was meant to have said:

'Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? And yet not one of them is forgotten by God. Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are worth more than many sparrows. Luke 12:6-7'

I know how important I am to my parents and how important my children are to me. I don't think that has anything to do with ego. The difference between me and a schizophrenic, is that I don't hear voices speaking to me and I'm not sure there is a god- I know I may be mistaken. I 'trust' or 'hope' there is a God that does hear me, but I know it seems more likely there isn't.

[Eilonnwy]

I think you are the arrogant one in presuming you 'know' about people who pray. It is not arrogant to pray, maybe silly from non believers' points of view,which I understand. As for those who may 'pretend' to pray and be doing something for you I'm sure there are dishonest people who pretend to be believers for material gains. People like FutureandaHope on the other hand, are sincere (even if misguided). I would thank someone if they prayed for me. They spent some of their time on me. A very unselfish thing in my opinion.

I don't deny the fact that people who prayer think they're doing good. It's a subtle arrogance, that is fed by religion. Just one of the many contradictions that religion makes where you're supposed to meek and sinful, but if you pray god will answer them. I totally recognize that people who do it don't see it as arrogance because it's one of the many compartmentalist dogmas of religion, but I'm still going to call it out as such.

I think I can state my opinion on prayer since I used to prayer and it was always for selfish reasons.

Humans are selfish by nature, and I'm not saying we should all be selfless. If we were all selfless we'd all be in serious trouble. There's a time and place for everything.

When I would sit in church and listen to the list of people who got listed in one segment of the service I always thought how ridiculous it was that some people got special mention and then they always finished off with "And everyone else suffering from illness, who has passed away, etc..." It was obvious to me even then that they the prayer served as making the people it concerned feel better. It didn't really do anything.

I know the intention behind prayer is in general meant to be positive, but people in general have convinced themselves that praying is effective and that does more damage in my mind. One of my favorite quotes is "1 pair of hands working does more than 1000 clasped in prayer" If say all the people who prayed for someone who is seriously ill instead gave $5 bucks to their medical bill, that would be a tangible benefit. But at the same time I recognize that we can't do that. I would love to give more than $5 a week to charity (Which I do) but we all have to take care of ourselves first before we can take care of anyone else.

Prayer essentially fools you into thinking you are being charitable when really you're not, and I have no qualms about saying so when the discussion comes up. There may be, I fully admit, a placebo like effect that in some cases may help someone but until I any proof of real tangible evidence that it does good, it receives my disdain. End of story.

Sorry if you think that's arrogant but I think it's better to actually try to do something to help someone if you really mean it as opposed to just saying a prayer.

edit- If you say that people who pray also may give to their church and donate, that's fine. I would never deny the charitable works that religion does, but could they do the same thing without praying? I think they could.

[CoxRox]

Eilonnwy, I would agree that 'actions speak louder than words'. Much of what you say I can understand and agree with. I'm sure that when you used to 'pray' you didn't feel 'arrogant', maybe uneasy that you were wanting something again, but surely not arrogant?? Well, I'm going by how I feel when I pray. Some prayers are more like meditation, rather than asking for things. If there is no God then most prayers are a sheer waste of time. I don't say 'all' because I think some are probably having a positive effect. The power of thought is real and can effect someone in a good or bad way.

[Eilonnwy]

To me, believing that an all powerful creator has time to answer your prayer from billions of other people in the world is arrogant. I would think it almost the definition of arrogance. Just because the person doesn't perceive it as so doesn't make it less true. I don't mean it in a scathing, accusatory "You're arrogant!" way, but just simply...it's arrogant. I'm not gonna sugar-coat or water-down my opinion of it.

I know it may same shocking to think of it in that way, but to me the inability to see that side of prayer shows the blindness religion has to it's own hypocrisy.

If prayer has a meditative effect, then it in essence has an effect that can be achieved through secular means. So if a benefit is achieved through prayer that can also be acheived secularly...then let's throw out the superstition.

[CoxRox]

I think it is a shame that you view people who pray as arrogant. That is my opinion of your opinion. Having prayed myself, and met many people who do pray I would say that arrogance is probably the last attribute I would attribute to the practice but again that is my opinion and experience. The fact I cannot 'see' this arrogance is not because I am blind, but maybe because I 'see' sincerity in people. Most people who are humble enough (others may say mad) to attempt to pray in the first place are not my idea of arrogant people, misguided maybe but not arrogant.

[Eilonnwy]

If say I lost my parents in a horrible car accident, or got ill, or any of number of things with which a person might be compelled to pray for me, it's arrogant. It's arrogant on many levels, one way I've already mentioned being the fact that they believe a universal creator cares enough about them out of all the billions of people to give them what they want. But there are other ways too. When you say you'll pray for someone it's arrogant to assume they'd appreciate it, that they would believe or show deference to the god you specifically believe in.

And let's take another example, there was an instance where some mayor or governor, I forget which, but he asked the people to pray for rain because they were in a drought. What if there are people who don't want the rain so their roof won't leak, or what if someone somewhere else needs rain more than you do?

I don't don't the sincerity of prayer. I don't doubt for a second that people that pray are honestly praying for good things to happen. It's still arrogant.

[bozo]

The problem with prayer as I see it is that you are basically asking God to do something for you that he wasn't already planning to do. Otherwise there would be very little point.

This would be fine if..

1. God existed.
   
2. He wasn't omniscient.
   
3. And he was powerful enough to grant your wish.
   

However, every Christian I have tackled about this tells me that God is all powerful (omnipotent) and all seeing (omniscient). If that is the case then God already knows the outcome of every possible event that has, will or can ever take place.

What then is the point of prayer because what ever happens was going to happen anyway and not even God could change that because of the obvious paradox of being omnipotent and omniscient at the same time.

The problem with prayer is that god squad wants it both ways. Either the prayer is granted ( glory be! ) or it isn't then it's god's will ( so don't fuck with god, loser! ).

[Kyuuketsuki]

Prayer is dumb. What it actually shows is the arrogance of religious believers that some all powerful creator god cares about them to meddle in their everyday life.

It's also an effortless way for people to pretend they're doing something to help you, when really they not.

Exactly! Many's the time I have seen news reports of people praying for others in a tragedy (church services and such) and held up as if they are something grand or noble ... they're not! They do nothing except blow self-serving sunshine up the pray-ers collective arses and I'm usually thinking (sneering might be a better description if truth be known), "If you're really so bloody concerned (they typically aren't of course) why don't you get out there and do something?" That may seem unkind but I ma genuinely sick of the kind of media crap when it comes to reporting things like that (and don't even get me started on when someone is reported as being " a good Christian" or whatever ... sickening!) ... it makes me so angry!

Kyu

[CoxRox]

I wouldn't be so presumptious or arrogant even, to say to someone 'I will pray for you.' To volunteer such a personal thing in this manner will be misconstrued and not appreciated or understood rather. I can see that. I've prayed for someone who doesn't know I've prayed for them e.g my mum has health problems. I know she wouldn't mind anyway, cos she prays herself. I've had people say, 'say a little prayer for me'. I don't mind. I'm probably not the best person to say 'the little prayer' as I'm a big doubter.

I think if there is a God, ALL of us will be equally important to him, not just those who pray. All human life is precious.

[leo-rcc]

Now suppose I am a sincere Hindu and I ask you to sacrifice a rabbit for me on Kali's altar for my recovery, would you do that?