girlish girls, manly men.

[John V]

Oh, but it is. Some obviously get hit harder than you and can't find their way out of it just with some lifestyle changes, and might get hit so hard that they don't find the strength in themselves to make them.

That's a good reason for those without depression, or with mild depression, to make changes now.

No, I'm not saying that. Especially if you've overcome some form of depression, you may have valuable insights to give. It's just that it is known that there are cases of depression where lifestyle changes do not solve the problem.

That lifestyle changes may not completely solve the problem doesn't mean that such lifestyle changes shouldn't be implemented.

Ok, noted. But that's just an observation, what are you trying to tell us with this information.

That a real man is less likely to be depressed.

The real issue here is that you are trying to tie your health advice to completely problematic ideas about relationships and gender,

Gender roles which have been found across time and cultures are not "completely problematic" because some people now say so.

and you better have a good argument why that baggage should be part of the deal.

No, as such "baggage" has been around for a long time, you need a really good argument as to why it can be discarded.

[Alex K]

No, as such "baggage" has been around for a long time,

So have Smallpox...

you need a really good argument as to why it can be discarded.

Don't think I didn't notice how you're suddenly completely changing to a new argument without having finished the last one convincingly. You never got beyond a vague statement that somehow being a dominant chauvinist might aid to prevent depression, or something, and that gives any justification to that lifestyle.

Now your argument is that it's because it has always been done like that. Ok...
No, I discard your ideas because they severely limit the ways women can flourish, and would lead to a world I find unjust, populated with people I'd find terminally boring. Most of us do.

[robvalue]

Never mind women becoming depressed as a result of this behaviour huh. I know the bible teaches how they are unimportant.

[Alex K]

Never mind women becoming depressed as a result of this behaviour huh. I know the bible teaches how they are unimportant.

I'm sure alpha male is convinced that with a strong male hand, firm male leadership, getting it regularly, and God, they'll be a-ok.

[John V]

Don't think I didn't notice how you're suddenly completely changing to a new argument without having finished the last one convincingly.

You won't be convinced by any argument I make.

You never got beyond a vague statement that somehow being a dominant chauvinist might aid to prevent depression, or something, and that gives any justification to that lifestyle.

Now your argument is that it's because it has always been done like that. Ok...

Actually my point is that men and women have different natural tendencies. So, the point isn't that traditional roles should be continued out of tradition...it's that traditional roles developed and continued because the genders have differing natural tendencies. This isn't rocket surgery. You can't logically blame social constructs, because those social constructs developed for a reason. If, looking across time and cultures, typical gender roles were random, with somewhat equal proportions of patriarchal, matriarchal, and egalitarian societies, then the social construct as cause position would make sense. But that's not what we find.

No, I discard your ideas because they severely limit the ways women can flourish,

My ideas don't limit the ways in which women in general can flourish. Nature (from your POV evolution I suppose) limits the ways that women - and men - can flourish. I don't necessarily like that - being a kept man sounds pretty good at times - but my dislike of it doesn't blind me to reality, as it does for you.

[Alex K]

You won't be convinced by any argument I make.

If you keep making 'em like this, we'll never find out.

Actually my point is that men and women have different natural tendencies. So, the point isn't that traditional roles should be continued out of tradition...it's that traditional roles developed and continued because the genders have differing natural tendencies. This isn't rocket surgery.

No, and it's not brain science either. It's talking from your ass science, and also irrelevant to how we construct society today even if it were true. If we wanted to follow nature in how we conduct business, we'd on average die in pain at the age of 35 from something nasty.

My ideas don't limit the ways in which women in general can flourish.

You know, you may not see it, but I highly doubt that...

[John V]

No, and it's not brain science either. It's talking from your ass science, and also irrelevant to how we construct society today even if it were true. If we wanted to follow nature in how we conduct business, we'd on average die in pain at the age of 35 from something nasty.

So what's your explanation for the fact that men have been the leaders in most cultures throughout history? Just coincidence?

You know, you may not see it, but I highly doubt that...

Within the past coupla months there was a thread in which I was defending feminism against some of the atheists here.

I have three daughters, and I want them to have the right and opportunity to pursue whatever will make them happiest.

However, I'd also like them to have the wisdom to look at themselves honestly and accurately assess what will make them happiest.

Just because someone has the right to do something, doesn't necessarily mean that it's best for them to do it.

[The Valkyrie]

My interpretation of the speech of "real men" from my experience

"Women should be subservient" = "Strong women scare me"
"I'm getting some tonight" = "As long as my hand isn't too tired"
"Tonight I'm trying a different position" = "I'm using my other hand"
"I decided not to have sex last night" = "My hand fell asleep"
"I have to leave" = "My mum's calling"

[Thumpalumpacus]

I probably have just not in a sickeningly overly sentimental way and while using a quote typed up by someone else that for some reason has gone slightly viral on the internet, probably found on google images or something.
But yes I am usually more of a forthright person myself, If I miss someone I tell them, if I apreciatte something I'll tell someone on the phone. I tend to avoid telling 100 other people who don't care and who don't even know the person I'm talking about.

Congratulations. It's a shame more folks aren't like you!