Detecting design or intent in nature

[Heywood]

-Says the man who's committed the very same blunders for 78 pages worth of posts. Here's to 500 yall.

You guys are in denial....that's all. You know what. That doesn't bother me one bit. Debates like this are never won or lost at the time of the debate. The victory occurs later, long after the discussion is forgotten....in moments of self reflection.

[The Grand Nudger]

About what, let me guess, you haven't been reading my posts, huh? Surprise surprise.

[Heywood]

About what, let me guess, you haven't been reading my posts, huh? Surprise surprise.

I've learned that when your post contain the jerkoff smilie there isn't any content worth reading. So I auto-skim those.

[Surgenator]

This is not how evolution works, and this one of many reasons your automobile example fails.

If you need example of automobile evolution that looks more closely like biological evolution, take a look at this:

---

---

1) In 1953 to 1955 the back bumper got shorter but then jump back to elonged version in 1956. Evolution can't do that.
2) What the fuck happen between 1960-1961? Did a bastard child became the main lineage?
3) Did someone chopped off the rear of the 1962 decendent?
4) Did the 1967 just sprouted an spoiler out of nowhere? Where is my small changes over time.

I can go on but thank you for pointing out how cars are do not follow the rules of evolution, specifically the accumalated changes.

[The Grand Nudger]

I've learned that when your post contain the jerkoff smilie there isn't any content worth reading. So I auto-skim those.

Might explain why you persist in making the claims that you do......

Fun fact...I got Tibs to add that smiley to the boards.
(you're all welcome)

-almost forgot

[Heywood]

If you need example of automobile evolution that looks more closely like biological evolution, take a look at this:

---

---

1) In 1953 to 1955 the back bumper got shorter but then jump back to elonged version in 1956. Evolution can't do that.
2) What the fuck happen between 1960-1961? Did a bastard child became the main lineage?
3) Did someone chopped off the rear of the 1962 decendent?
4) Did the 1967 just sprouted an spoiler out of nowhere? Where is my small changes over time.

I can go on but thank you for pointing out how cars are do not follow the rules of evolution, specifically the accumalated changes.

All those things you describe are small changes. Here is another small change...this time though, it is in a human.

---

---

[downbeatplumb]

Can emergent self-order occur without intellect? Yes.

At Last!!!

Is it your position that all emergent self-order can happen without intellect?

Some do some don't.

[Heywood]

Is it your position that all emergent self-order can happen without intellect?

Some do some don't.

Evolutionary systems are examples of emergent complexity. If some emergent complex systems require intellect and others do not, is it not fair to ask the following question:

Are evolutionary systems the kind of emergent complex systems which require intellect?

How would go about answering that question? Well you would define what evolution is, then go out and look for examples of things which satisfy your definition, and then note if they require intellects. In the case of evolutionary systems it seems intellects are either required to set them up directly as in the case of the spider sim, or they set them up indirectly when provide the necessary elements of such systems.....as in the case of the automobile. One never, ever observes evolutionary systems coming into existence without intellects. Now given this state of affairs it is not unreasonable to conclude that all evolutionary systems require intellects.

[downbeatplumb]

[quote='downbeatplumb' pid='856654' dateline='1422304407']

Some do some don't.

Evolutionary systems are examples of emergent complexity. If some emergent complex systems require intellect and others do not, is it not fair to ask the following question:

Are evolutionary systems the kind of emergent complex systems which require intellect?

No.

How would go about answering that question? Well you would define what evolution is, then go out and look for examples of things which satisfy your definition, and then note if they require intellects. In the case of evolutionary systems it seems intellects are either required to set them up directly as in the case of the spider sim, or act as a component as in the case of the automobile. One never, ever observes evolutionary systems coming into existence without intellects. Now given this state of affairs it is not unreasonable to conclude that all evolutionary systems require intellects.

We know how evolution works in detail and this informs the answer. That intellect is not required.

Simple starting conditions can lead to complex results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2vgICfQawE

[Surgenator]

1) In 1953 to 1955 the back bumper got shorter but then jump back to elonged version in 1956. Evolution can't do that.
2) What the fuck happen between 1960-1961? Did a bastard child became the main lineage?
3) Did someone chopped off the rear of the 1962 decendent?
4) Did the 1967 just sprouted an spoiler out of nowhere? Where is my small changes over time.

I can go on but thank you for pointing out how cars are do not follow the rules of evolution, specifically the accumalated changes.

All those things you describe are small changes. Here is another small change...this time though, it is in a human.

---

---

What part of accumulated changes did you miss? You cannot accumulate a smaller rear (1953 to 1955) and drop it off like it never happened (1956) in one generation. Plus, evolution doesn't give you 5 different changes at once (1961). Removing (1962) or adding (1967) a developed heritable trait in one generation isn't allowed by evolution. Your horn examples is not a heritable trait.