Advice Sought for Web Programming

[AFTT47]

I have both programming and HTML/CSS experience. I would call myself an intermediate-level programmer using VB.NET and C#. I've done several websites using HTML/CSS with a smattering of active content using PHP but nothing fancy such as data-driven websites.

I'm looking at moving from desktop to browser-based programming but I'm not sure what route to take. I want to be able to build powerful, client-side applications that are platform-independent but I don't have a good feel for what the limitations are. Is it worth it to learn Java script or should I go straight into something more powerful like PHP?

I'm looking at code editors/IDEs too. Webstorm looks pretty nice but I wish you could add languages to it rather than have to get a whole new IDE for using PHP.

I should add that I'm a hobby programmer, not professional.

[bennyboy]

If you are already comfortable with C# and VB, then I recommend looking into ASP. This is Microsoft's answer to PHP, and you can use either C# or VB as the code-behind. In fact, you design Web Forms almost exactly the same as you make Windows Forms: drag tools onto a window, double click to autobuild an event handler, etc. However, when you say "client-side," I'm not sure what that means to you: both PHP and ASP are server-side. Yes, you have PHP-GTK, or AJAX controls for ASP, but I wouldn't do that: web pages are SUPPOSED to be mainly processed server side, so that you're not dependent on the speed and capabilities of whatever hardware is viewing your webpage. If you want more power, then I think you'll have to write in Java, or port your app to iOS, Android and Windows.

Okay, so back to PHP vs ASP. I love ASP. It's easy to design a page quickly, and you design your code-behind in either C# or VB using Visual Studio (same drag-and-drop forms design, same way of creating events, same debugging tools). You can use the same .NET libraries you already use: graphics libraries, string builders, etc. Properties are also referred to in the same way. For example, in ASP, to set the text in a textbox, you'll say something like Mybox.Text = "Hello, world," exactly as you already do for Windows programming. Combine ASP with Javascript (Or, easier, jQuery), and you can do pretty much any cool thing you've ever seen a webpage do: hide, show and animate divs using a single line of code, have buttons which do neat stuff clientside, etc. Javascript also gives you access to a client-side timer, so you can play sounds at a regular interval, flash lights, etc. and you can use controls to adjust variables: scale image boxes, etc. Technically, Javascript would probably be powerful enough to write a simple game, though I don't think it would be the best tool for the job.

Anyway, my answer is that if you already like .NET, use it, and supplement it with jQuery. You'll find the web flooded with fanboys for ASP (like me) or fanboys for PHP ("Dude, it's free!"), but in the end, either will get the job done very well. Go with what you know. Also-- check out CSS5. It's pretty sexy.




There IS one major drawback to using ASP: actually getting a server. You will probably have to pay $20 or $40 / month for a Windows server, whereas most free hosting solutions I've seen work with PHP.

[AFTT47]

Yeah, I would rather not go with something propriety like ASP - even though it's probably the most capable. I've been a longtime Windows guy but I have serious reservations about Microsoft's future now.

I've done some research since my first post and see that java script is client-side while PHP/Ruby/Python is server-side. I don't know what I was thinking there - you can't do a client-side database.

From what I can see, I'll probably focus on PHP first on the server side since it looks to be easy to learn. It looks like the IDE PHPStorm incorporates all the Webstorm stuff for HTML/CSS/java script. Not bad for $100.00.

I'm looking at getting a year-long subscription to Learnable for PDF books and courses. Any experience with them or know of anything better?

[bennyboy]

There's nothing wrong with PHP. I wouldn't pay for books or courses, though. The point of PHP is that it's a free environment, and there is a massive amount of community support online for it. Google/youtube ftw!

[AFTT47]

Thanks!

[WinterHold]

Guys there are cheap ASP.NET servers too ; check this list :

https://besthostingsearch.net/best-asp-net-hosting/

using one of the sites in the list ; it only costs about 100 $ annually.
it's only expensive if you demanded an unlimited storage (which is ; for a junior/indie developer is totally not needed), along with extra expensive security procedures which are also needed only by companies & projects of high value.

bennyboy I like your opinion.

[bennyboy]

Guys there are cheap ASP.NET servers too ; check this list :

https://besthostingsearch.net/best-asp-net-hosting/

using one of the sites in the list ; it only costs about 100 $ annually.
it's only expensive if you demanded an unlimited storage (which is ; for a junior/indie developer is totally not needed), along with extra expensive security procedures which are also needed only by companies & projects of high value.

bennyboy  I like your opinion.

Hmmmm. . .

I might have to start shopping for a new provider.  My ASP hosting costs have been at like $30/month for about the past 3 years, with only a couple Gb of ram.  Given these new prices, and that Microsoft is providing a complete framework for free at http://www.asp.net/downloads , I'd even more strongly recommend ASP over PHP.

My beef with PHP is probably why a lot of people like it: open frameworks with a lot of amateur-designed libraries.  To me, trying to figure out how to make this version of this library and the other version of that library work together feels less like freedom and more like an extra level of problem solving. I suppose one man's "proprietary" is another man's peace of mind, but I very much LIKE the fact that the designer, the programming language, and the framework are all made by the same people, and are all specifically designed to evolve together.

I don't want to discourage AFTT47, though. I've worked with PHP and it works fine. My own opinion is once you've worked with a few different frameworks and languages, you end up with a kind of meta-knowledge that lets you move to new technologies whenever you want to, and get new projects up and running on whatever tools you need to use. I suppose in the end, AFTT47 should try developing in BOTH frameworks, and learn what each is strong/weak at, and which works best with his way of doing things.

[AFTT47]

bennyboy, some of what I'm doing is emotion-driven. I despise the direction Microsoft is moving and I would just as soon wash my hands of them. I also wonder about the future of asp.net. It doesn't seem like it's very popular.

On a side note, I'm studying javascript right now. I don't at all consider myself a programming chauvinist (I prefer VB to C#) but MAN, javascript is UGLY! I mean it's freaking HIDEOUS! The untyped variables will take some getting used to.

[Jackalope]

I have both programming and HTML/CSS experience. I would call myself an intermediate-level programmer using VB.NET and C#. I've done several websites using HTML/CSS with a smattering of active content using PHP but nothing fancy such as data-driven websites.

I'm looking at moving from desktop to browser-based programming but I'm not sure what route to take. I want to be able to build powerful, client-side applications that are platform-independent but I don't have a good feel for what the limitations are. Is it worth it to learn Java script or should I go straight into something more powerful like PHP?

I'm looking at code editors/IDEs too. Webstorm looks pretty nice but I wish you could add languages to it rather than have to get a whole new IDE for using PHP.

I should add that I'm a hobby programmer, not professional.

Javascript and PHP are really two entirely different things.  Javascript runs in the browser, PHP runs on the server, and they serve different needs.  PHP does all the back end stuff and outputs the HTML, Javascript runs on the client side and allows you to do UI things you can't do with straight HTML/CSS, and gives you the capability of doing AJAX stuff.

Javascript sucks, but it's practically a requirement for web development (that, or one of it's alternatives).

I do Java-SE/EE / JSP professionally, but that may be overkill for a hobby programmer (development environment is IntelliJ + Maven w/Spring framework and Hibernate , deployed on Tomcat application server with a database backend (Oracle, MySQL, or damn near anything else).  Big learning curve, though, and overkill unless you're looking to do some very scalable projects.

I'm not personally a big fan of PHP, but it certainly does work for it's intended purpose.  I couldn't comment on IDE's for it though.

[bennyboy]

bennyboy, some of what I'm doing is emotion-driven. I despise the direction Microsoft is moving and I would just as soon wash my hands of them. I also wonder about the future of asp.net. It doesn't seem like it's very popular.

On a side note, I'm studying javascript right now. I don't at all consider myself a programming chauvinist (I prefer VB to C#) but MAN, javascript is UGLY! I mean it's freaking HIDEOUS! The untyped variables will take some getting used to.

As long as you understand that javascript is (a) not Java; and (b) absolutely necessary to any and all internet programming, you're fine.  Whatever IDE you use, I recommend always viewing the page source of the pages you.  You'll see that your designer of choice adds a lot of javascript already: buttons, for example, get wired using Javascript. I can honestly say that the day I started using Javascript is the day I went from mucking around to being able to do really neat stuff. And the nice thing about learning Javascript is that you will use it no matter what language or framework you use for code-behind. It is pretty much guaranteed to be time well spent.

Example of Javascript that can be set up quickly:
1) Give a bunch of divs, buttons, or absolutely any kind of control the class name "hider"
2) Use jQuery like this $(".hider").hide();

Presto chango, all divs, buttons, whatever with that class name disappear from the page, with no postback to the mother ship. Awesomeness!

You can also add a "click" event to any control with a classname, even a div, and it's all client-side. It borders on cheating, it's so easy.